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I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

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Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#211

Post by munk-a »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #51
progre wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always fought to stay a developer as well. It seems that as soon as I know a codebase well enough to be really productive, there is a "team lead" or "scrum master" role waiting. Once or twice I've even fallen for it but the result have always been more meetings, less customer interaction, more responsibility and somehow less power over the product. Pay has stayed the same of course.

Interviewing for my last two jobs, I told them very explicitly that my career goal was to never become a manager.

I don't think I've ever interviewed from the same angle but I have been clear with my managers that I want to avoid moving into any sort of people management. It hasn't been an issue and when you've marked yourself out as a long term developer you can get more momentum behind technical pushes that might have a long project lifetime since the company will be less concerned about putting a big weight in your hands - they can trust you to carry it through[1].

1. I mean - assuming no life changes which you should never feel guilty about making to suit your own interests.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#212

Post by dang »

kristinamay wrote: post #171
site-packages1 wrote: post #151

I think the title on HN is different than the title in the actual article, and has different implications. The HN title implies that getting "demoted" wasn't the goal but a bad effect of following dreams. The title from the actual article, "I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer," is much better: clearly the "demotion" was the goal of following their dreams.

FWIW I saw the feedback in here on the title, agreed with the potential for misinterpretation, and changed it in the original blog post to make its intended meaning more clear. The title was correct when it was posted.

Thanks for clearing that up. Changed above now!

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#213

Post by dang »

Geminidog wrote: post #93

If she didn't get a pay downgrade to associate swe then she is not even remotely close to starting from scratch. The company is basically letting her learn a new field on their dime, which is fine, but this is basically a story less about her earning her skills as a software engineer and more about the charity of her Boss and the company allowing her to learn these skills. This is not an economic move for the company…

Edit: actually, you've done this so many times before that I've banned the account. Please stop creating accounts to break HN's rules with. We're trying to avoid internet hell here, so repeatedly being pushed into a flaming pit is something we'd kind of prefer to avoid.

You broke the site guidelines egregiously by turning this into a gender flamewar. Seriously not cool. Please don't do this on HN again.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#214

Post by itronitron »

ysavir wrote: post #56
gumby wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about it makes you insecure? It's about someone who changed jobs because they decided they'd prefer to do something else. It isn't one of those "in six weeks I turned my side gig into a Nobel-prize winning web site and now I'm a billionaire" clickbait articles.

Probably due to the very poor and misleading article title, which frames the situation as a "demotion", something that happens to us, not something that we decide to do. The article has a good message, but the title is absolute click-bait. Many people might come across the title, and although not interested in reading it, walk away with the idea that following dreams leads to negative consequences. I hope the author…

The title undermines any message that the author may have cared about conveying. This is why I rarely read articles where the title has a whiff of clickbait.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#215

Post by nottrobin »

Does "director" mean something much lower than it sounds like? Or does "associate" mean something higher?

To me, a "director" is someone who understands the business deeply, knows how to lead, take initiative, communicate very well, has years of business experience under their belt...

They want to be a dev. Sure, they need to learn git, python etc. But these are not that hard at all. The harder part of being a developer is communication, making hard decisions, showing leadership. Things a director should be pretty damn good at.

"Demoting" her to an associate developer is stupidly patronising.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#216

Post by dang »

Geminidog wrote: post #199
kristinamay wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Blog post author here) Referring to my job change as the company offering me charity is offensive and incorrect (I took a pay cut and worked hard to learn what I need to in order to be effective). Asserting that someone working in UX research/design is in an entirely unrelated field from software development is also wildly incorrect. UX folks work with SWEs regularly and are working on the same projects, albeit from…

>Referring to my job change as the company offering me charity is offensive and incorrect (I took a pay cut and worked hard to learn what I need to in order to be effective). It was not intended as an insult, so apologies. But I still stand by my statements because I believe them to be true. Other things that will lead to clearer views on this is your overall software skills relative to other people in the same posit…

We've banned this account for egregiously breaking the site guidelines. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26069552 and stop creating accounts to do hellish things on HN.

Haranguing other users who show up here to discuss their work is one of the worst things anyone can possibly do here—and yes, that's what you've did: "If that's the case present your data!" — that you were not hired because of your sex and your looks? What the fuck.

We want authors show up on HN to discuss their writings. The choice between having that vs. having trolls who personally attack them is not a difficult one.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#217

Post by jedberg »

100011_100001 wrote: post #76
CivBase wrote: post #70

Can someone explain to me why titles like Engineer, Architect, and Developer are perceived as having less value than titles like Manager or Director? Managing products requires a completely different skill set from managing people. Both skills are vital to the success of a business and neither are trivially developed or easily replaced. If you ask me, the "demotion" in this article is not going from Director of Desig…

In a lot of companies Managers and Directors make more money than being a Developer. On top of that the perception of status is higher from the outside if you are a Director vs a Developer. Smart tech companies have two paths, the management and the engineer path. Where they both have certain expectations but there is no pay ceiling. Bad tech companies tend to disregard this and there is a point that you can no longe…

> Smart tech companies have two paths, the management and the engineer path.

In my 25 working years, I've learned this is mostly lip service. Yes, there are ICs who make as much as a VP. But look at Amazon. There are maybe ten people in that company that are IC level making what VPs make. And thousands of VPs.

To be a VP, you have to be a really great manager. To get VP pay as an IC (ie. Distinguished Engineer), you have to be the best in the world in your field.

So yeah, it's possible to have equivalent tracks, but the reality is that you will never make as much as an IC than if you switch to the management track.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#218

Post by dang »

skratlo wrote: post #104
Geminidog wrote: post #93

If she didn't get a pay downgrade to associate swe then she is not even remotely close to starting from scratch. The company is basically letting her learn a new field on their dime, which is fine, but this is basically a story less about her earning her skills as a software engineer and more about the charity of her Boss and the company allowing her to learn these skills. This is not an economic move for the company…

This is such a horrible misogynistic comment, it saddens me greatly this crap is on top, tells a tale about HN audience. Janitor? Charity? Hot female? Just listen to yourself, you're so full of hate.

We've banned the account. Obviously that was egregious vandalism, if not arson.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26069552

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26069593

You have to judge this sort of thing by the entire community response cycle, though. Indignation, provocation, trolling often gets heavily upvoted—but then the rest of the community reacts appropriately and flags it. Usually that will bring it to our attention, too, in which case we can take further moderation action.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#219

Post by munk-a »

cldellow wrote: post #58
jbay808 wrote: post #6

Kind of frustrating to see this framed as a "demotion". But it's great to see someone starting over in a new career track that suits them better.

> demotion (n) - a reduction in rank or status But it is a demotion! I think perhaps we view that as a negative thing when it's done as a punishment, or due to factors outside one's control. But in this case, she chose it (indeed, worked for it!), so she must think it was worth it. Her rank is literally demoted. She went from being high on the job ladder ("Director") to low on the job ladder ("Associate"), reflecting…

I still disagree - I think there is too much of a conflation between managing people and rank/status. Once upon on a time master craftsmen were the pinnacles of their industries but mechanization has shifted the framing to place "doers" below "directors" - I don't think this is strictly accurate and prefer to think of people managers as peers that manage the interpersonal side of the business (which I think is quite important to take care of - I just suck at it) - similarly I think that directors, if they're good, are managing long term strategy and that senior craftsmen need to be in on this conversation to supply expert advice on what's possible similar to salespeople being in on the conversation to try and inform what may sell.

Org-charts are about management structure and directors weirdly get very highly placed on them while their role isn't person-management driven. I've always found them exceeding strange except in their highlighting of SMEs and to aide in inter-departmental communication.

But this all may just be the socialist in me shining through as someone working with a team to make widgets that do their thing well.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#220

Post by throwawaygh »

100011_100001 wrote: post #76
CivBase wrote: post #70

Can someone explain to me why titles like Engineer, Architect, and Developer are perceived as having less value than titles like Manager or Director? Managing products requires a completely different skill set from managing people. Both skills are vital to the success of a business and neither are trivially developed or easily replaced. If you ask me, the "demotion" in this article is not going from Director of Desig…

In a lot of companies Managers and Directors make more money than being a Developer. On top of that the perception of status is higher from the outside if you are a Director vs a Developer. Smart tech companies have two paths, the management and the engineer path. Where they both have certain expectations but there is no pay ceiling. Bad tech companies tend to disregard this and there is a point that you can no longe…

This is true within companies but at least in Software is often not true between companies.

E.g., the 2nd/3rd-to-last rung of a FAANG IC ladder makes much more than managers and directors at most other companies in the USA.

This is significant because it's much easier to become a senior IC at a FAANG than to become a Regional Director at the typical company in the USA.

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