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I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

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Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#101
post #70

Can someone explain to me why titles like Engineer, Architect, and Developer are perceived as having less value than titles like Manager or Director? Managing products requires a completely different skill set from managing people. Both skills are vital to the success of a business and neither are trivially developed or easily replaced. If you ask me, the "demotion" in this article is not going from Director of Desig…

When you make a decision as a manager or a director, the impact of that decision has a multiplicative force.

As an individual contributor, the impact of your decisions may be broad, but however broad your individual impact is, your manager's impact on you is [broad * number of directs], so it's always "greater" (note: not better, just greater).

So in that sense, the "value" of a manager/director is "higher".

IMO it's all just a series of roles, and you need someone to do both. Someone has to be designing and building code while someone else attends meetings and understands the larger context of that code, making sure the code makes sense a week/month/year later.

In fact, I prefer it when managers take on a much less "HR" role, and instead act as "go-fers" for their team, a la "how can I unblock you today?". Bonus points if they can mentor, but not necessary.

Being an individual contributor isn't a "demotion", but it is a change in where your impact hits (people vs. things). You need both, and it's fundamentally a partnership, I wish more people realized that.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#102
post #11

When you think Managers (Directors) are more worth then the peoples who actually create something. Maybe have a look at Gates and Musk who are actually engineers rather then Managers....or more correct Managing-Engineers. But congratulation for your "demotion".

Most of the value that Gates created was as a pure manager.

He was a programmer before, possibly amazing at it too, but I'd hardly say his role at Microsoft was that of an engineer-manager.

He regularly attended engineering meetings throughout his tenure as CEO (he says so in that Netflix mini-series about him) but by far his largest drivers for creating value were how he envisioned software eating the world (esp. the enterprise), and how he executed a commercial strategy to perfection to build a monopoly around that vision.

Not to downplay the difficulty of building operating systems at scale, or that Microsoft might have made some impressive innovations in the 80s and 90s, but they always had a reputation for their products being "OK" at best, so I'd argue their dominant position was acquired through wheelin' and dealin' more than anything else.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#104

If she didn't get a pay downgrade to associate swe then she is not even remotely close to starting from scratch. The company is basically letting her learn a new field on their dime, which is fine, but this is basically a story less about her earning her skills as a software engineer and more about the charity of her Boss and the company allowing her to learn these skills. This is not an economic move for the company…

This is such a horrible misogynistic comment, it saddens me greatly this crap is on top, tells a tale about HN audience. Janitor? Charity? Hot female? Just listen to yourself, you're so full of hate.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#105
A terrible career move. As other commenter said, if there wasn't a pay cut, is because of the company charity.

Now she has to be not only a good coder but a great one, (and in a tech stack she didn't had used already).

Otherwise, a year from now, they might not feel so charitable, and the story will be "from director of design to fired IC".

A friend of mine made a similar mistake once, believing the BS of the "parallel management and engineering tracks".

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't ever agree to move up unless you are paid more.

Or unless you're actually looking to get that kind of experience

I guess I could amend it to "Never move up when someone else wants you to unless you get a pay bump."

If you want to move up and someone else is iffy on it, sure, skip the raise to help convince them.

It's a matter of who is prompting the move, and what extra responsibility is required and such. If your boss asks you to take on more responsibility, ask for more money. That's really all I'm saying.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#107
post #70

Can someone explain to me why titles like Engineer, Architect, and Developer are perceived as having less value than titles like Manager or Director? Managing products requires a completely different skill set from managing people. Both skills are vital to the success of a business and neither are trivially developed or easily replaced. If you ask me, the "demotion" in this article is not going from Director of Desig…

As companies get larger and larger, the need to manage people becomes even greater challenge. The C level people start to disassociate from "tech" people and start associating more with "management". Even guys that start out as engineers, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, etc. get swallowed up by management layer deep state.

You'll start noticing when the "Star" employees of the late stage start up are more from HR, director groups, instead of product, tech, etc.

A single developer developing an app vs large team building an enterprise SAAS application have exponential differences.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, I loathed management. Even as a team lead, meetings made me literally sick to my stomach, I don't know that you should use this criteria as the sole deal breaker. Managers should be shielding teams from unproductive meetings and pushing for productivity (action items) from the meetings that happen - holding their peers to a degree of standards. Now, if you hate 1:1, org planning, and successful m…

Everything about it. Every moment spent organizing, planning, reviewing, coordinating, is just torture. If, at work, I am doing anything but working on code, or preparing to (researching, reading, etc.), I feel like I am wasting my time, and it is just draining. At the end of a work day, my mood is completely determined by how much time I spent on code.

I'm always thrilled to hear stories from people who have or reach this level of self-awareness, about what determines their mood/satisfaction. It's so wonderfully freeing to know yourself to that level, and understand part of what makes you tick internally.

I myself am a former-engineer and current-manager, and I also remember absolutely loathing meetings as a waste of time, explaining things to people who don't really care that much about what I have to say, and plus why should I contort myself to speak "their" language and why can't they be bothered to learn to speak "my" language as an engineer?

But over time, I think I've come to develop a taste for, the style of communication that happens in most typical business meetings. If you think about coding and entering a "flow" state, to me the core of that flow is being able to clearly and concisely conceptualize the software abstractions you have in your head, mapping them effectively from business concepts or technical requirements and into code, and being able to just churn out a beautiful representation of all those things into something tangible (an application, a service, etc.).

Believe it or not, in roundabout ways, meetings can achieve that kind of "flow" state as well, creating a shared understanding of a beautiful abstraction, and resulting in high-bandwidth exchange of ideas. Certainly it is much harder to achieve "flow" for meeting communication than for coding/engineering (IMHO at least) since it involves lots of other people with lots of different backgrounds and different levels of understanding, but I find that nonetheless it is something I can find enjoyment from the pursuit of that state. Not every meeting succeeds in reaching that "flow" state, but more and more I can perceive and introspect why/why-not it didn't, and come out with tangible lessons for myself for improving. So long as I have a flywheel for getting better, it doesn't feel so draining or so pointless anymore even when I "fail". And sometimes, I really do come out of the most productive meetings feeling very energized, and hearing from my peers how much clarity they gained or how much more confident they are about a decision that was previously questionable/uncertain, is truly a great feeling (at least as good for me, as producing a solid piece of beautiful code).

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#110

I just get a feeling that no matter how privileged you are, how intelligent you are, how high or low a position you are in, or how much money you make there is going to be some random article on HN to make you feel insecure.

I get a feeling you commented after reading the headline and didn't read the article. This is a positive story and I'm glad the person was given the opportunity to chase her dreams.

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