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I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

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Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#51

Post by AnimalMuppet »

progre wrote: post #8
jacobsenscott wrote: post #3

From someone who's spent nearly 20 years trying to stay near the bottom of the org chart, welcome!

I've always fought to stay a developer as well. It seems that as soon as I know a codebase well enough to be really productive, there is a "team lead" or "scrum master" role waiting. Once or twice I've even fallen for it but the result have always been more meetings, less customer interaction, more responsibility and somehow less power over the product. Pay has stayed the same of course.

Interviewing for my last two jobs, I told them very explicitly that my career goal was to never become a manager.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#52

Post by cambalache »

mssundaram wrote: post #32
nix23 wrote: post #11

When you think Managers (Directors) are more worth then the peoples who actually create something. Maybe have a look at Gates and Musk who are actually engineers rather then Managers....or more correct Managing-Engineers. But congratulation for your "demotion".

What you're ignorant of is intangible value. Sure there are managers and C levels that don't, but I'd bet that most are successful at creating value that you're just quite not able to see.

How convenient. A huge percentage of managers in large organizations are expert on talking the talk, read this:

https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...

Any big organization will optimize for people who can extract as much value from their peers/subordinates and present it as their own.

By the way, this does not mean they are not smart or hard working, but you could say the same about any other worker.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#54

Post by smileysteve »

geophile wrote: post #24

Good for you. I was in startups for 25 years, (except for a few years in an acquiring company), and I had this ongoing debate with myself and my bosses for many years: Should I stay on the technical side (developer, architect), or go into management? On one hand, I thought that I "should" go into management because ... that's what people do, right? On the other hand, I loathed management. Even as a team lead, meeting…

> On the other hand, I loathed management. Even as a team lead, meetings made me literally sick to my stomach,

I don't know that you should use this criteria as the sole deal breaker. Managers should be shielding teams from unproductive meetings and pushing for productivity (action items) from the meetings that happen - holding their peers to a degree of standards.

Now, if you hate 1:1, org planning, and successful meetings, that's another thing.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#56

Post by ysavir »

gumby wrote: post #26
spicymaki wrote: post #9

I just get a feeling that no matter how privileged you are, how intelligent you are, how high or low a position you are in, or how much money you make there is going to be some random article on HN to make you feel insecure.

What about it makes you insecure? It's about someone who changed jobs because they decided they'd prefer to do something else. It isn't one of those "in six weeks I turned my side gig into a Nobel-prize winning web site and now I'm a billionaire" clickbait articles.

Probably due to the very poor and misleading article title, which frames the situation as a "demotion", something that happens to us, not something that we decide to do.

The article has a good message, but the title is absolute click-bait. Many people might come across the title, and although not interested in reading it, walk away with the idea that following dreams leads to negative consequences. I hope the author changes it.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#57

Post by austincheney »

> Most importantly, I was right: I thought I’d love writing code professionally, and it turns out, I do!

She must clearly not be writing JavaScript.

I love writing JavaScript applications, but not professionally. It’s a matter of actually building a product versus spinning your wheels with hundreds of megabytes of dependencies and stupidity and circular processes.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#58

Post by cldellow »

jbay808 wrote: post #6

Kind of frustrating to see this framed as a "demotion". But it's great to see someone starting over in a new career track that suits them better.

> demotion (n) - a reduction in rank or status

But it is a demotion! I think perhaps we view that as a negative thing when it's done as a punishment, or due to factors outside one's control. But in this case, she chose it (indeed, worked for it!), so she must think it was worth it.

Her rank is literally demoted. She went from being high on the job ladder ("Director") to low on the job ladder ("Associate"), reflecting the fact that she's still developing the capabilities needed to do her new discipline. I guess maybe if one viewed this as a commentary on management vs IC work, it could be seen negatively -- but I didn't personally interpret the framing that way.

Ditto for status - she likely went from having lots of soft power due to her time and relationships in the design org, to essentially starting over in the development org.

Are these bad things? I don't think so. Presumably she was pretty clear on the short-term negative impacts of the change, and still wanted it.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#59

Post by Spooky23 »

spicymaki wrote: post #9

I just get a feeling that no matter how privileged you are, how intelligent you are, how high or low a position you are in, or how much money you make there is going to be some random article on HN to make you feel insecure.

Don't look at it that way!

Sometimes we by nature map self-worth to title... don't do it! At this point in my career, I'm a senior director, accountable for nine figures of turnover annually and driving things that truly matter and are meaningful to me. I'm reasonably good at what I do, and am blessed to have an incredible team. But, if I could make the money work and not have to relocate, I'd happily be a staff engineer again. I miss the technical problem solving (ie. learning alot about a thing vs. learning a little about 100 things), the small team and mentoring new people.

I'm not grousing, it's just a different set of things, but I think that I would miss the "perks" of what I do now less. It also makes an impression on me that for a brief window, technical "stuff" made me a rockstar to my nieces and nephews 10-15 years ago. Now, my 9 year old eyerolls at my "conference call commando" skills.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#60

Post by emmanueloga_ »

mooreds wrote: post #46
charlesu wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it say she kept her old salary? The going rate for a design director is probably a lot higher than that of an entry-level software engineer.

Came here to ask this. It doesn't say, but I think that'd be a key part of the "frank discussions" she had with her manager.

Perhaps that's the explanation for the controversial "demoted" word ...
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