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I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

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Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#161

Post by kazinator »

carlisle_ wrote: post #149
Geminidog wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did. I responded because imo under normal circumstances nobody would be offered this kind of deal. It doesn't make economical sense for the company. She was given leeway and my guess is because she's a woman among other things. Women do have advantages that men don't. Women also have disadvantages but that is not my point. I am simply pointing out one area where women have an advantage in a male dominated field. It…

Oh no, women have one advantage over men (if it were true) in a male dominated field. How do you not see how contradictory that statement is?

It isn't. Sometimes women are given an advantage, in a way that is completely unfair and only gives a small boost to certain women with certain personality, attractiveness and age characteristics. Men with certain outward characteristics get a least as much of a boost.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#162

Post by kazinator »

Geminidog wrote: post #126
skratlo wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a horrible misogynistic comment, it saddens me greatly this crap is on top, tells a tale about HN audience. Janitor? Charity? Hot female? Just listen to yourself, you're so full of hate.

I didn't say anything hateful towards women. I think women get this better treatment then men but I didn't say they should turn it down nor did I say they didn't deserve it. I simply pointed out a difference. And what wrong with switching from Janitor to SWE? Same basic job switch from one another field with completely different skillets but completely different treatment due to perceived ranking.

> I think women get this better treatment

Don't forget that chubby, 59-year-old females are also women, though.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#163

Post by gumby »

ysavir wrote: post #115
ballenf wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Probably due to the very poor and misleading article title, which frames the situation as a "demotion", something that happens to us, not something that we decide to do. Not seeing the connection with that and feeling inferior. I agree with your point, just still can't figure out the top level comment.

Not feeling inferior, but feeling insecure. The message in the title can easily reinforce people's insecurities and discourage them from pursuing their dreams, because they'll just get "demoted".

We have a fairly diversified economy. If you feel promotion is more important to you, pursue that. If you feel performing a different kind of task is important to you, pursue that. Neither is "better" in some absolute sense, much less moral sense.

Life is full of tradeoffs though sometimes they are easy and that's wonderful ("doing X isn't worth the money to me" or "I don't really like doing Y but I don't mind because the extra money will allow me to Z"). Some people couldn't care less about titles (e.g. me) while some people think they are even more important than pay (e.g. my mum who grew up in such a culture). I can't claim either is bad or wrong; people just have different itches to scratch.

The "choices" we should worry about are those forced upon people who don't actually have a choice ("I have to drag myself to my second minimum wage job because otherwise I'll be homeless").

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#164

Post by Geminidog »

carlisle_ wrote: post #149
Geminidog wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did. I responded because imo under normal circumstances nobody would be offered this kind of deal. It doesn't make economical sense for the company. She was given leeway and my guess is because she's a woman among other things. Women do have advantages that men don't. Women also have disadvantages but that is not my point. I am simply pointing out one area where women have an advantage in a male dominated field. It…

Oh no, women have one advantage over men (if it were true) in a male dominated field. How do you not see how contradictory that statement is?

So your saying women have zero advantages over men? That absolutely none exist or has ever existed?

Out of all possible advantages (let's say 1000 in total) your saying men hold 100% of all these advantages and women can't even hold one advantage?

What in your mind is more realistic?

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#165

Post by throwawaygh »

CivBase wrote: post #117
TameAntelope wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you make a decision as a manager or a director, the impact of that decision has a multiplicative force. As an individual contributor, the impact of your decisions may be broad, but however broad your individual impact is, your manager's impact on you is [broad * number of directs], so it's always "greater" (note: not better , just greater ). So in that sense, the "value" of a manager/director is "higher". IMO it…

> So in that sense, the "value" of a manager/director is "higher". That depends on how high the multiplier is and how many direct reports a manager has. A manager with 5 direct reports and a multiplier of 110% is only producing as much net value as 0.5 of his/her reports. A manager with 20 direct reports and a multiplier of 106% produces a net value of 1.2 of his/her reports. It's not safe to say that managers in gen…

Much more importantly, it depends on the multiplicative effect that an engineer is positioned to have.

It's 2002. Does a Kohls Director Of Whatever with tens of direct reports and thousands of people below those reports have more leverage than a single engineer at Amazon?

It's 2021. Does a manager of hundreds of warehouse workers have more leverage/impact potential than a single engineer in a robotics R&D division?

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#166

Post by TameAntelope »

CivBase wrote: post #117
TameAntelope wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you make a decision as a manager or a director, the impact of that decision has a multiplicative force. As an individual contributor, the impact of your decisions may be broad, but however broad your individual impact is, your manager's impact on you is [broad * number of directs], so it's always "greater" (note: not better , just greater ). So in that sense, the "value" of a manager/director is "higher". IMO it…

> So in that sense, the "value" of a manager/director is "higher". That depends on how high the multiplier is and how many direct reports a manager has. A manager with 5 direct reports and a multiplier of 110% is only producing as much net value as 0.5 of his/her reports. A manager with 20 direct reports and a multiplier of 106% produces a net value of 1.2 of his/her reports. It's not safe to say that managers in gen…

Totally fair. The potential impact a manager can have is much higher (good manager multiplying their positive impact across good engineers), but an ineffective manager can be less impactful (or even actively harmful) to their direct reports (bad engineer multiplying their negative impact across bad engineers).

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#167

Post by kristinamay »

Geminidog wrote: post #126
skratlo wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a horrible misogynistic comment, it saddens me greatly this crap is on top, tells a tale about HN audience. Janitor? Charity? Hot female? Just listen to yourself, you're so full of hate.

I didn't say anything hateful towards women. I think women get this better treatment then men but I didn't say they should turn it down nor did I say they didn't deserve it. I simply pointed out a difference. And what wrong with switching from Janitor to SWE? Same basic job switch from one another field with completely different skillets but completely different treatment due to perceived ranking.

(Blog post author here) Referring to my job change as the company offering me charity is offensive and incorrect (I took a pay cut and worked hard to learn what I need to in order to be effective).

Asserting that someone working in UX research/design is in an entirely unrelated field from software development is also wildly incorrect. UX folks work with SWEs regularly and are working on the same projects, albeit from a different perspective.

There are also examples of men at my company making fairly similar changes across organizations. I'd love for you to take a minute and consider why you approached my story with the preconceived notion that I've only gotten this opportunity because I'm a woman.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#168

Post by carlisle_ »

Geminidog wrote: post #164
carlisle_ wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh no, women have one advantage over men (if it were true) in a male dominated field. How do you not see how contradictory that statement is?

So your saying women have zero advantages over men? That absolutely none exist or has ever existed? Out of all possible advantages (let's say 1000 in total) your saying men hold 100% of all these advantages and women can't even hold one advantage? What in your mind is more realistic?

I'm saying what's the point of even keeping score when the odds are so stacked against women. Your complaints are entirely anecdotal, meanwhile it's very easy to point at empirical data showing how women are treated poorly.

If you wanna line up your complaints alongside mountains of empirical evidence showing how women are disenfranchised repeatedly feel free, just don't expect people to take you seriously when you call yourself a feminist.

If you actually want to call yourself a legitimate feminist you should spend more time listening and learning. It might make you actually feel silly to complain about how men are treated in tech.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#169

Post by TameAntelope »

throwawaygh wrote: post #153
TameAntelope wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you make a decision as a manager or a director, the impact of that decision has a multiplicative force. As an individual contributor, the impact of your decisions may be broad, but however broad your individual impact is, your manager's impact on you is [broad * number of directs], so it's always "greater" (note: not better , just greater ). So in that sense, the "value" of a manager/director is "higher". IMO it…

> When you make a decision as a manager or a director, the impact of that decision has a multiplicative force. Every time I hear this explanation, I can't help but think "so we're still smoking Luck Strikes, huh?" When you make a decision as a software engineer, the impact of that decision can often have a multiplicative or even exponential force. The goal of 21st century organizations -- especially software organiza…

One question for you: how does an engineer know what to automate?

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#170

Post by carlisle_ »

kazinator wrote: post #156
carlisle_ wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find these anecdotes to be completely untrue. Women are often assumed to be less competent, and are often passed over during hiring for men of equal competence. I've seen some incredibly useless dudes sit back and rest and vest for months and months without any repercussions. I don't have an equivalent story for women because I work with significantly less women. Let's try focusing on the apparent and obvious biase…

You can't find someone else's anecdotes untrue. Reverse sexism is completely real, just like "regular" sexism. It doesn't compensate for it in any way, of course. Reverse sexism helps some women, some of the time. It doesn't help women, as such, in the big picture.

>You can't find someone else's anecdotes untrue.

Sure I can when they're filled with obvious and apparent cognitive biases.

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