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I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

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Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#121

If she didn't get a pay downgrade to associate swe then she is not even remotely close to starting from scratch. The company is basically letting her learn a new field on their dime, which is fine, but this is basically a story less about her earning her skills as a software engineer and more about the charity of her Boss and the company allowing her to learn these skills. This is not an economic move for the company…

I find these anecdotes to be completely untrue. Women are often assumed to be less competent, and are often passed over during hiring for men of equal competence. I've seen some incredibly useless dudes sit back and rest and vest for months and months without any repercussions. I don't have an equivalent story for women because I work with significantly less women. Let's try focusing on the apparent and obvious biase…

>I find these anecdotes to be completely untrue.

You can't find my anecdotal experiences to be untrue because you haven't experienced my anecdotal experience. This is physically impossible.

What you can claim is that my anecdotal experiences do not apply to women in engineering corporations in general. However, this is not a claim that I made as I caveated my point with the fact that what I'm saying is based off of my own anecdotal evidence.

> I don't have an equivalent story for women because I work with significantly less women.

Evidence is the only way to make sense of the reality we live in and there are two basic types: Anecdotal and Statistical. You claim here that you have no anecdotal evidence. That means statistical evidence is your only option (a stronger option btw) so where is it?

>Let's try focusing on the apparent and obvious biases against women before we start keeping score on how men are so disenfranchised.

Why should I focus on your claim that has no evidence? If men are indeed disenfranchised shouldn't that deserve focus? Are womens' rights superior to mens rights? Are you implying men can't be treated unfairly?

Why can't we focus on the rights of both genders?

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the title of the article is pretty poor. It kind of sounds like someone who was promoted from a developer to something else, rose to the level of their incompetence, then reversed the promotion to go back to doing what they enjoyed. This person was not a developer previously, so I don't understand how they were "demoted." Other than management > individual contributor. What really happened was they changed jobs…

They were director of design! I am not part of that company so it’s possible that director is a joke there but in most companies that’s the highest level prior to the c suite/owners (public company/professional services firms). That would mean she likely had immense autonomy and a large group of direct reports whom themselves had teams of direct reports. Going from that to “just a coder” ie one team member of one tea…

> That would mean she likely had immense autonomy and a large group of direct reports whom themselves had teams of direct reports.

As someone who has worked at a variety of companies - this isn't true. It's just a title. I've seen plenty of "director of X" with no direct reports. I don't know how big Stack Overflow's design department is but with only 300 people in the company - I can't imagine it being massive enough to warrant a typical director title you'd see at some truly big corps where a director has 50+ people under them.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#123

If she didn't get a pay downgrade to associate swe then she is not even remotely close to starting from scratch. The company is basically letting her learn a new field on their dime, which is fine, but this is basically a story less about her earning her skills as a software engineer and more about the charity of her Boss and the company allowing her to learn these skills. This is not an economic move for the company…

I find these anecdotes to be completely untrue. Women are often assumed to be less competent, and are often passed over during hiring for men of equal competence. I've seen some incredibly useless dudes sit back and rest and vest for months and months without any repercussions. I don't have an equivalent story for women because I work with significantly less women. Let's try focusing on the apparent and obvious biase…

[deleted]

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#125
From a [flagged][dead] comment:

> This is not an economic move for the company.

I'm not at all sure I agree with you on this. I've worked for quite a few years as a software engineer in banking. At one of the companies where I worked, we had an intentional policy of taking people from non-technical roles (such as "telephone support") and giving them opportunities to move within the company to technical roles... sometimes QA, sometimes development roles.

It is certainly true that these people were less productive for the first year or so than if we had hired a new graduate. And these people rarely (I can't think of any examples) became our algorithm experts who led the way in optimizing the scaling of large systems.

But in my opinion, it was a HUGELY successful program. I mean, it was nice that the people who went through this program had a strong company loyalty. And it sure didn't hurt the morale in roles like telephone support to see some of their former colleagues entering a programming career. But what I really mean is that these people made some of our best developers.

Because you need a mix of different skills as a developer. Sometimes you need someone who knows the latest algorithms or tools for optimizing performance or choosing the best new language to build in. But far more frequently, what you really need is someone who knows the business problem and can communicate about it clearly in the customer's own language. A project nudged into right direction to meet poorly expressed but still important business needs is easily worth thousands of developer-hours of work. And understanding of the business is what these people had, in spades.

So, perhaps Ms. Lustig brings important skills that complement her developer role. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that perhaps she knows a LOT more about UI design than the average developer. She may also know a lot about the company and its needs. And these are VERY valuable things for a developer to know.

(The flagged comment ALSO contained some completely unwarranted -- and unsubstantiated -- sexist assumptions which I think are better ignored than disputed.)

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#126

If she didn't get a pay downgrade to associate swe then she is not even remotely close to starting from scratch. The company is basically letting her learn a new field on their dime, which is fine, but this is basically a story less about her earning her skills as a software engineer and more about the charity of her Boss and the company allowing her to learn these skills. This is not an economic move for the company…

This is such a horrible misogynistic comment, it saddens me greatly this crap is on top, tells a tale about HN audience. Janitor? Charity? Hot female? Just listen to yourself, you're so full of hate.

I didn't say anything hateful towards women. I think women get this better treatment then men but I didn't say they should turn it down nor did I say they didn't deserve it. I simply pointed out a difference.

And what wrong with switching from Janitor to SWE? Same basic job switch from one another field with completely different skillets but completely different treatment due to perceived ranking.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#127
post #105

A terrible career move. As other commenter said, if there wasn't a pay cut, is because of the company charity. Now she has to be not only a good coder but a great one, (and in a tech stack she didn't had used already). Otherwise, a year from now, they might not feel so charitable, and the story will be "from director of design to fired IC". A friend of mine made a similar mistake once, believing the BS of the "parall…

Best career move I ever made was to quit a managerial job and learn coding.

Three years later I was making more $$ as an IC with none of the stress and nuisance of management.

Five years later I was making 2x my old salary and significantly happier w my day to day work.

To each their own...

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, I loathed management. Even as a team lead, meetings made me literally sick to my stomach, I don't know that you should use this criteria as the sole deal breaker. Managers should be shielding teams from unproductive meetings and pushing for productivity (action items) from the meetings that happen - holding their peers to a degree of standards. Now, if you hate 1:1, org planning, and successful m…

Everything about it. Every moment spent organizing, planning, reviewing, coordinating, is just torture. If, at work, I am doing anything but working on code, or preparing to (researching, reading, etc.), I feel like I am wasting my time, and it is just draining. At the end of a work day, my mood is completely determined by how much time I spent on code.

I feel this too. I've been working in industry since the early 2000s and for me I've known for a while now that I do not want to be a manager. There have been times where I've considered it, but like you, I find organizing, planning, reviewing, coordinating tortuous. I would rather design and implement a system, or work with others to do so, than spend time doing the meta-work to get work done.

That said, to get a title promotion, I've found that you have to do more of the organizing, planning, coordinating stuff to be noticed. Performance reviews are biased towards "the next step" in your career and companies are forever trying to get you to do more "meta-work" which I really dislike.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#129
post #7

An inspirational story that anyone, at any level, can always reinvent themselves given time, patience, and a plan. That said, "demotion" doesn't seem like the right word. Yes, going from Director to general population is technically a step down, but more realistically this is a lateral move. In a lateral move sometimes you get to keep your pay but almost never your rank.

> Director to general population is technically a step down, but more realistically this is a lateral move.

What makes you say this? An entry level SWE is lateral to a director who is presumably multiple rungs up on the org chart?

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#130
post #2

That’s a very clickbaity title. I was reading the article and sharpening my pitchfork up until the middle when I had to stop and put it down (the metaphorical pitchfork)

The website's title is okay "to get demoted", it is the Hacker News title that is clickbait: "and got demoted".
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