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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#421

Post by closeparen »

Bakary wrote: post #398
closeparen wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think "the ethical thing" is to undermine governments which don't conform to our values... do you vote for the most hawkish candidate in every election? Are you joined up with the armed forces? Why not? America could bring the whole world to heel on "freedom & democracy," and yet even people who think of themselves as righteous, don't want to. Why? Could it be that cost is actually a good argument? Could it be…

>America could bring the whole world to heel on "freedom & democracy" Nuclear weapons may have something to say about that...

Which is why letting a country develop nuclear weapons is a serious thing. It’s assenting to everything they might want to do, forever.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#422

Post by rpdillon »

andrewnicolalde wrote: post #415
rpdillon wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both choices seem terrible to me: either stop serving swaths of users or take part in removing their freedom. If Apple and Google fostered a strong community of alternative app stores, they wouldn't have to make this choice at all.

Does one of those choices seriously not sound worse than the other?

It depends on how you measure "worse". I gather you're alluding to the moral argument, and I completely agree: Google leaving Pakistan is my gut reaction to this.

But public companies have shareholders that demand the company optimize for revenue, so I assume they are balancing that as well. This means they are weighing value systems against one another.

I was trying to highlight an opportunity to encourage other app stores to reconcile this tension to some degree. Allowing/encouraging other app stores will no doubt impact revenue to some degree, but perhaps not a great degree, since it mostly acts as an escape hatch in cases like this (convenience seems to dominate user behavior). But it would also allow Google/Apple to continue to serve users in Pakistan, some of whom might not agree with their government's position.

The subtext here is that I fundamentally disagree with the argument that users should be disallowed from installing apps of their choice from sources of their choice on devices they purchased. I know this is a fringe opinion, so I was eager to point out how it might help in this situation.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#423

Post by ClumsyPilot »

closeparen wrote: post #394
mabbo wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not I've said this before, but if you only do the ethical thing when it doesn't cost you anything, you aren't actually an ethical person. You're just an opportunist. Companies that say they have to do the unethical thing because otherwise shareholders will get mad or fire them, well they're doing the same thing, but it's avoiding personal costs (ri…

If you think "the ethical thing" is to undermine governments which don't conform to our values... do you vote for the most hawkish candidate in every election? Are you joined up with the armed forces? Why not? America could bring the whole world to heel on "freedom & democracy," and yet even people who think of themselves as righteous, don't want to. Why? Could it be that cost is actually a good argument? Could it be…

"trying to impose your own system of morality on the whole world"

You are comically missing the point. Microsoft does not get asked to take down software from windows.

Apple and Google shouldnt have the ability to apply unilateral censorship.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#424

Post by ClumsyPilot »

pas wrote: post #419
snoshy wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oppressive regimes even of the most extreme order still need to deal with reality and the choices of other parties that aren't fully within their control. If Google/Apple were to take a stand here and walk away, it would put tremendous pressure on Pakistani government, and make this a hot button issue. Imagine the entire nation waking up one day to find that their apps no longer function because their leaders made ch…

China did it. Many countries routinely block Google stuff. > It would certainly cause the constituents of these regimes to reconsider their support of the leaders. How can we be certain of that? I think many people drastically underestimate the number of people who a) don't care b) are invested in the regime c) gullible d) care, but won't do anything because they don't want to rock the boat, e) care, want to rock the…

There is obvious choice: dont give yourself the ability to control and sensor , and then be surprised when governments want you to press the button.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#425

Post by notsureaboutpg »

mr_toad wrote: post #363
rat87 wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laicite is stupid France doesn't understand freedom of religion, a fundamental human right which they have pledged to uphold. Take the french school headscarf ban or the stupid outrage about the Burkini

> freedom of religion, a fundamental human right They believe in not forcing people to follow a state religion. That’s not the same as letting people do whatever they want because “religion”. It’s not like most religions believe in freedom of religion anyway. The same people who argue for the right to wear certain headwear belong to a religion that prescribes the death penalty for apostasy.

Most religions don't believe in freedom of religion, correct. OP is saying lacite is stupid because it's a type of secular religion rather than true freedom which does not maintain an orthodoxy.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#426

Post by notsureaboutpg »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #374
djrogers wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though. A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

So american companies will compromise on their own freedom, an important american value and principle, for the sake of pursuing profit in foreign countries. They'd rather obey a foreign dictator than lose their business.

Why is it a compromise on their own freedom? Are American companies not free to choose where and who with to do business?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#427

Post by ClumsyPilot »

rat87 wrote: post #351
nomoreusernames wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

french secularism is beautiful. all are equal under law. and freedom FROM religion. if your friend and his friends had this thing where they chopped of skin from their babies genitals. would you be ok with that? why is it ok when religious people do it? clearly following dogma in this case over reason is the symptom of mental illness or damage. religions are much more oppressive if you ask me. they function without a…

Laicite is stupid France doesn't understand freedom of religion, a fundamental human right which they have pledged to uphold. Take the french school headscarf ban or the stupid outrage about the Burkini

Perhaps freedom from religion is a fundamental human right.

Perhaps there are valid concerns that many women are being forced to cover themselves against their will, but are unable to do much about it. I havent studied this spesific issue enough to say either way, but I am not clear where your certainty is coming from.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#428

Post by ClumsyPilot »

COGlory wrote: post #370
djrogers wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though. A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

So is ethically IBM criticism free for their role in the holocaust?

Are any people with a role in the holocaust still working at IBM?

Companies are not a suoernatural force, they are conposed of people.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#429

Post by ClumsyPilot »

mindslight wrote: post #307
mcguire wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the article, Pakistan (along with China, Vietnam, Germany, Nigeria, and Russia among others) requires physical presence and data localization in order to do business.

Or what? A physical presence is one of the only leverage points they'd have over you. If you don't accede to that, what are they going to do? Obviously I'm describing a much different tack than Google and Apple have chosen, and switching between the two isn't easy. But the point is that Google and Apple could have set themselves up this way, likely with the full blessing of the State Department. They chose not to and…

Eh, it does not sound like you thought this through. I would prefer my medical data to reside in my country, so that its governed by privacy laws I vited for.

The whole blockclain free-for-all ungovernable banansa has it's place, but its not for everything.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#430

Post by ClumsyPilot »

passivate wrote: post #345
zapdrive wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each of the two alternate steps you mentioned are an order of magnitude more difficult than just banning the app.

I don't think its an order of magnitude. Blocking CDNs that host APKs and P2P traffic is fairly easy to implement. Most firewalls will let you do this. The more wide-scale you want to deploy your app, the easier it will be to detect (more asymmetry) and block the hosting source. Anyway, we're far far away from the main point now. I believe the best approach to the problem is solving it bottom-up rather than top-down.…

Telegram is 'blocked' in Russia, yet you can still get the APK, you can install it, it works, torrents work, etc. It's crazy popular.

The action you describe were tried anf they broke half the internet, and were backpedalled.

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