Live data from Hacker News

Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

buzzfeednews.com

301–310 of 515 posts

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though. A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

Actually there is. Don't set up physical presences in oppressive countries. Architect your software to not rely on singular chokepoints like centralized servers. We've seem to have forgotten this, because it's not economically expedient. But we shouldn't give these companies a pass for having set themselves up to be instruments of totalitarianism.

According to the article, Pakistan (along with China, Vietnam, Germany, Nigeria, and Russia among others) requires physical presence and data localization in order to do business.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At which point said phone is no longer available for purchase in Pakistan. This attitude pervades tech-inclined folk's discussions of politics, as if the Internet is somehow above the laws and culture of the places where it operates, especially with regard to the global south. Just because you either don't comprehend or don't respect a given culture enough to learn about it, doesn't mean it no longer applies to you.…

> At which point said phone is no longer available for purchase in Pakistan. This isn't really supported by how other similar devices are treated. We aren't seeing all PCs having hardware level censorship functionality inserted into it, as the behest of governments. The idea that a country would stop all phones from being purchased, if phones simply worked similarly to PCs, sounds about as unlikely as a country block…

> We aren't seeing all PCs having hardware level censorship functionality inserted into it, as the behest of governments.

I mean, that literally did almost happen once, right here in the US of A. And sure, points to you, no country has yet attempted it since then, but also, China has locked onto a much more productive and efficient model; controlling the flow of information itself, rather than the client devices at hand.

And yeah, that's circumvent-able by users of sufficient tech literacy and bravery, but also, that fact has not presented an issue yet for China's Communist Party in their efforts to keep a stranglehold on the culture of their country, apart from perhaps Hong Kong.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#303
post #291
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sure seems additive in this case. Google & Apple can choose not to do business in regulatory regimes that are oppressive in nature. That obviously comes at a direct cost of lost revenue from abstinence. It is a deliberate choice to do business anywhere at all. The simple fix here as you say, would be to stop doing business when forced to enact business practices that further oppression. Make no mistake, it is mone…

I am not sure if it is that simple, and I think companies have little choice but to be greedy, because if they choose not to be greedy, another greedier company is all but guaranteed to prevail. I suppose it could be argued that companies the size of Apple and Google are not bound by the same constraints as smaller companies. But if they choose to stop doing business in Pakistan, what would become of all of their exi…

> But if they choose to stop doing business in Pakistan, what would become of all of their existing customers?

What happens to Pakistani users of Debian, if Debian doesn't do business in Pakistan? Nothing. Those users are fine. iOS users would be in a bind only because Apple chose to create a system where users are left high-and-dry if/when Apple decides to no longer do business in any country.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#304
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At which point said phone is no longer available for purchase in Pakistan. This attitude pervades tech-inclined folk's discussions of politics, as if the Internet is somehow above the laws and culture of the places where it operates, especially with regard to the global south. Just because you either don't comprehend or don't respect a given culture enough to learn about it, doesn't mean it no longer applies to you.…

I mean, to step past the common dodge of moral relativism, the whole thing behind this is a tacit agreement amongst a lot of tech-inclined folk that quite a few cultures (including powerful, western cultural movements, past-and-present) are just plain evil. So we're using whatever tools we have to subvert and change these cultures, and we're putting leverage on companies we have cultural hegemony over to try to work…

> I mean, to step past the common dodge of moral relativism, the whole thing behind this is a tacit agreement amongst a lot of tech-inclined folk that quite a few cultures (including powerful, western cultural movements, past-and-present) are just plain evil. So we're using whatever tools we have to subvert and change these cultures, and we're putting leverage on companies we have cultural hegemony over to try to work around - in whatever ways they can - laws that we consider similarly evil. It's a culture war, plain and simple. I've chosen to use "we" here to be honest about my own affiliations in this particular case (of anti-Ahmadiyya censorship).

And my point isn't to denigrate those efforts as they are, merely to point out that the fact you're permitted to engage in those efforts is contingent on those efforts remaining ineffective. Those in power will never concede power to those without peacefully, this is a lesson history teaches us all the way back to the city state of Ur. If you ever were to engage in efforts that caused legitimate destabilization of the power structures above you, those efforts would be put down. Probably legally, possibly violently, but they will be put down.

The fact that some Governments are quicker to pull the metaphorical triggers, doesn't mean the others are therefore not armed.

> A company like Google might not have the power to say no to censorship in China, but they're a lot more likely to have considerable heft against a nation that can't credibly mount a replacement for something like Google.

This presumes the Government in question sees value in a thing it is trying to actively remove. Like I'm not trying to be rude, but do you think it's a major concern of Pakistan's leadership that their people have ready access to Stadia and Chrome? Or the search engine itself, for that matter?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened. In this particular case, what problem would open platforms solve? The laws in Pakistan still exist and the social problem is not addressed. Or are you implying that Apple and Google should be on the hook for solving religious prob…

You can make the same arguments for bribery. Nonetheless it is illegal for a US company to bribe people abroad and US companies end up selling off their holdings in banana republics. Why is this law good? The US has a long history of corporations owning too much in banana republics and bringing the US into pro-dictator political positions.

"...US companies end up selling off their holdings in banana republics."

Do you have a source for that? I have run across instances of US companies using various schemes to avoid the appearance of bribes (usually involving paying a "consultant" a large amount of money and paying no attention to how the consultant gets the business done), but I know of none getting rid of their businesses in other countries.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#306
Going to make an unpopular opinion:

Well... Their content is being blocked on behalf of their own government while Pakistani social media content, especially Twitter content is being banned by Twitter India on behalf of Indian government. Recently my account was restricted when I RTed tweets of an Indian raising voice against farmer protest and once I got banned because I RTed a tweet about atrocities in IOK.

We also witnessed how parker app was banned and how many content is taken down on behalf of Many governments.

The point is, many counties are involved in such wicked activities one way or other regardless of who is pro democracy and who isn't.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually there is. Don't set up physical presences in oppressive countries. Architect your software to not rely on singular chokepoints like centralized servers. We've seem to have forgotten this, because it's not economically expedient. But we shouldn't give these companies a pass for having set themselves up to be instruments of totalitarianism.

According to the article, Pakistan (along with China, Vietnam, Germany, Nigeria, and Russia among others) requires physical presence and data localization in order to do business.

Or what? A physical presence is one of the only leverage points they'd have over you. If you don't accede to that, what are they going to do?

Obviously I'm describing a much different tack than Google and Apple have chosen, and switching between the two isn't easy. But the point is that Google and Apple could have set themselves up this way, likely with the full blessing of the State Department. They chose not to and now predictably find themselves being used to implement totalitarianism.

Their situation is a bit stickier being hardware brands, but that just illustrates why they shouldn't have built in digital restrictions to their devices. I doubt Asus is finding themselves under such pressure, because they simply don't have the technical capability to control what users run on their computers.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened. In this particular case, what problem would open platforms solve? The laws in Pakistan still exist and the social problem is not addressed. Or are you implying that Apple and Google should be on the hook for solving religious prob…

You can make the same arguments for bribery. Nonetheless it is illegal for a US company to bribe people abroad and US companies end up selling off their holdings in banana republics. Why is this law good? The US has a long history of corporations owning too much in banana republics and bringing the US into pro-dictator political positions.

> Nonetheless it is illegal for a US company to bribe people abroad

IANAL but this is only partially true from what I understand. It's legal if the bribe is "grease money". (Grease money is paying a public official to do their job properly and promptly, while regular bribery is paying a public official to do something they shouldn't. But the distinction between the two seems subjective or ambiguous in many possible scenarios.)

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#309
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened.

Just as we have laws that prevent US organizations from giving or taking bribes even in countries where bribes are legal (FCPA), and US laws prevent US individuals from overseas sex tourism which would be illegal on US soil, what prevents us from requiring US organizations not to participate in religious oppression, child exploitation, and other such acts?

You would further have to require US organizations not to do business with other organizations that participate in oppression, etc., transitively. And have to have a way to enforce that.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#310
post #297
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are hypocrites. They loudly proclaim how moral they are but when it is inconvenient/unprofitable their morality disappears.

Then they will have to leave entire subcontinent and middle east.

Yes.
Post reply on HN