Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims • Hacker News Board

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#351

Post by rat87 » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 10:37 PM UTC

nomoreusernames wrote: post #281

djrogers wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though. A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

french secularism is beautiful. all are equal under law. and freedom FROM religion. if your friend and his friends had this thing where they chopped of skin from their babies genitals. would you be ok with that? why is it ok when religious people do it? clearly following dogma in this case over reason is the symptom of mental illness or damage. religions are much more oppressive if you ask me. they function without a…

Laicite is stupid

France doesn't understand freedom of religion, a fundamental human right which they have pledged to uphold. Take the french school headscarf ban or the stupid outrage about the Burkini

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#352

Post by babesh » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 10:37 PM UTC

onethought wrote: post #328

babesh wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently for Apple, privacy is moral in the US but not in China. Hahahahahahaha! Also not really privacy since your device is backed up to Apple’s servers where they can conveniently hand them over to the US government. That’s right. If you are a citizen of say Germany, does the US government have access to your data?

What do they do in China that is different to the US?

They segregate Chinese data in China and have easy access to it. I wonder if they leave the rest of the world data in the US.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#353

Post by koshnaranek » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 10:39 PM UTC

1024core wrote: post #200

This only applies to Pakistan. It isn't Google's or Apple's place to fix Pakistan's problems. A company has to obey the laws of the country they are operating in. Those who oppose this should consider the alternative. Suppose there's an app that is openly racist and discriminates against POCs, which is against the law in the US. Since it is violating the law, shouldn't it be taken down?

So if Google would have had to use their phones to help find the SS find hidden Jewa, perfectly legal in Nazi Germany, they can and should do so since it is after all not their responsibility to fix Nazi Germany?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#354

Post by babesh » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 10:40 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #316

babesh wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was referring to the companies that were against the sanctions.

Apple is not against sanctions, so there is no comparison. If the US government includes technology restrictions as sanctions against Pakistan, I expect Apple would comply.

The point is that companies argued to continue doing business with South Africa because it would be a net benefit to those countries. It’s the same argument.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#355

Post by passivate » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 10:41 PM UTC

foolmeonce wrote: post #343

passivate wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain what 'same argument' you're referring to in your comment?

I think you are saying companies should break US laws regarding a topic (religious discrimination) while abroad in order to honor foreign laws if that is necessary in order to operate in a country. I think they should not consider operating in that fashion. They can push for regulation themselves if on their withdrawal they want to prevent an advantage to less ethical US competitors who stay.

I don't get it. Why would any government allow a business to operate if they don't respect local laws. Would the US allow that?

On principle, I sort of reject this notion that a giant corporation(s) should be encouraged to meddle in the internal matters of other countries. I think these kinds of moves will be perceived very differently by the locals. The famous line "They will welcome us as liberators with open arms..." (paraphrased) comes to mind :)

I think it is far better to promote your ideas peacefully using other means, rather than by forcing a government to adopt your views because you threaten them with economic consequences by pulling out of the country.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#356

Post by babesh » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 10:41 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #312

babesh wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it would be ethical to abandon their customers over this. Apparently religious freedom isn’t where you draw the line. What other rights are you willing to abandon?

Their customers live in a country without religious freedom. Do you think Apple has the power to change that? If they don’t do business there their customers are objectively worse off. Not only do they not have religious freedom, but they also don’t have access to technology. That seems wrong to me. I wonder what people in Pakistan would say? Would most of them really want these companies to leave?

I am saying that the companies are hypocrites. They don’t have to leave. Just expose their hypocrisy and lies.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#357

Post by LiberatedLlama » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 10:45 PM UTC

sjwright wrote: post #338

LiberatedLlama wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if they choose to stop doing business in Pakistan, what would become of all of their existing customers? What happens to Pakistani users of Debian, if Debian doesn't do business in Pakistan? Nothing. Those users are fine. iOS users would be in a bind only because Apple chose to create a system where users are left high-and-dry if/when Apple decides to no longer do business in any country.

A somewhat disingenuous argument. Debian isn’t physical hardware.

It's not selling physical hardware that binds Apple here; it's having an app store that requires the cooperation of national government to process payments. Pakistan could forbid Apple from opening Apple Stores in Pakistan, but Pakistanis would likely still be able to purchase apple products through resellers and/or black/graymarkets. And if iOS were not locked to Apple's authoritarian app store, oppressed ethnic minorities in Pakistan could distribute software through through their preexisting covert channels.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#358

Post by passivate » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 10:46 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #350

passivate wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't reasonably expect a government to welcome a business into their country, while the business is working against the interests of said government. Apple and Google are businesses who operate in various countries with the objective of making money. I still don't see why a tech company in the US should be in charge of engineering social behavior around the world. In my opinion, this is a dangerous path.

> You can't reasonably expect a government to welcome a business into their country But the country already allows "unlocked" PCs to be sold in the country. It is already allowing people to purchase devices that could work against the country. > should be in charge of engineering social behavior Intel is already selling PCs though. Why is it so crazy to suggest that phone companies should act more like what intel is…

>It is already allowing people to purchase devices that could work against the country.

Because they made a mistake once, they should make it twice? Well, that isn't likely to convince them!

>Why is it so crazy to suggest that phone companies should act more like what intel is already doing, by selling unlocked electronics?

You seem to be really passionate about this, and somehow think that I oppose open platforms. I never said that, and I don't.

>So you think that any company that is selling unlocked devices, is going down a dangerous path? Really?

No, I don't think that. Please stop putting words in my mouth. This is simply not a good faith conversation. I'm out.. sorry.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#359

Post by LiberatedLlama » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 10:47 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #323

alacombe wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which makes Apple & Google (and other tech companies) complicit with the CCP behavior for the sake of the almighty $$.

Google was the only tech company that took a moral stance and left China I thought? It hurt their income so bad new leadership tried to get back in...

No matter what the PR departments of these corporations would have us believe, when push comes to shove it's always about the money. These corporations are fair-weather activists at best.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#360

Post by babesh » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 10:48 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #312

babesh wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it would be ethical to abandon their customers over this. Apparently religious freedom isn’t where you draw the line. What other rights are you willing to abandon?

Their customers live in a country without religious freedom. Do you think Apple has the power to change that? If they don’t do business there their customers are objectively worse off. Not only do they not have religious freedom, but they also don’t have access to technology. That seems wrong to me. I wonder what people in Pakistan would say? Would most of them really want these companies to leave?

Also, let’s take it even further. How about the right to vote? Would it ok to do business in a country where women don’t have the right to vote? How about apartheid? How about slavery? How about genocide? Where is your line and on what basis would you make it? Do you even have a line?