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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#331

Post by franga2000 »

pas wrote: post #239
andrewnicolalde wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By following this oppressive law to "serve those users," Apple and Google appear to be partaking in the oppression of those users.

Is oppression additive/cumulative/composable/transitive? When someone has the power to do "fix" things but chooses not to, then that someone is partially responsible. Can A or G (or together) fix this?

For one, not being able to use Google or Apple products would be such a hit to the modern way of life that people might become less complacent. To be very clear, I am not blaming the people in any way for the situation they are in, but it makes sense that people would be more likely to stand up to tyranny when something very important to them is swiftly taken away. Even the simple act of taking a stance against these practices might inspire people to fight for their freedom.

Now, of course, all of these are small chances and all the ususl caveats of revolutions apply, but surely G&A continuing to do business there benefits nobody but themselves?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#332

Post by mensetmanusman »

mullingitover wrote: post #208
DigiDigiorno wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The highly religious nature of US settlers is directly connected to our secular freedoms. A lot of early settlers were pretty extreme practicers of their religions and faced persecution in Europe. They left to practice their religion in a place where they wouldn't be burned as a heretic. It's interesting that these opposing extremists were able to get along separately by agreeing to keep the government secular

> They left to practice their religion in a place where they wouldn't be burned as a heretic. Not true, at least in the obvious case of the Pilgrims of Plymouth. They were perfectly free to practice their religion when they lived in the Netherlands. They moved away because they wanted to create their own strict theocratic colony. The Netherlands, in their eyes, had too much religious freedom.

There is a lot of debate over why they moved. e.g.

-running out of room -economics -impending war -wanting to venture into the unknown

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/91317/holland-first...

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#333

Post by screye »

neil_s wrote: post #285

Since the underlying issue here is clearly with Pakistan's laws, I tried looking up how effective a democracy Pakistan is, so that its people would be able to push for freedom of speech laws (or overturning the blasphemy laws) if they so wanted. Hard to find unbiased sources on this, but it seems like while Pakistan has technically had democratic elections for a while, they have been mired with issues until fairly re…

Pakistan is as much a democracy as Bhutan or China.

Every (I do not exaggerate, you can actually check, since 1970) ex-leader of Pakistan was either assassinated, imprisoned or in exile.

Pakistan is military state, with the thinnest facade of democracy. The only people who are allowed to run are those who are already endorsed by the military.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#334

Post by DSingularity »

gataca wrote: post #65
DSingularity wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I agree with you that the sovereignty of people should be respected. But shouldnt we draw some line? Say Israel makes a law that Arab citizens should be tracked through a digital symbol to identify that they are of the non-Jewish subset of the population — should US companies comply? And I specifically choose Israel because it has a history of discrimination against its Arab population.

[flagged]

What you claim seems funny since so many Israeli Jews were once morrocan and remember Morocco warmly.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#335

Post by DSingularity »

gataca wrote: post #182
sofixa wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> allowing you to focus on potential future crimes of Israel You mean active current and historical crimes of Israel, surely? Two wrongs don't make a right, and many people and countries discriminating or massacring Jews historically doesn't excuse Israel's apartheid state, crimes against humanity and international law violations.

> You mean active current and historical crimes of Israel, surely? I was responding to OP's precog-like prediction of future crimes, so no. > Israel's apartheid state, crimes against humanity and international law violations. Overuse of these words/concepts has turned them into buzzwords and has steadily devalued them. Works well for virtue-signaling online though.

Really? Those are all just buzzwords? Do you really believe that?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#336

Post by franga2000 »

nomoreusernames wrote: post #281
djrogers wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though. A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

french secularism is beautiful. all are equal under law. and freedom FROM religion. if your friend and his friends had this thing where they chopped of skin from their babies genitals. would you be ok with that? why is it ok when religious people do it? clearly following dogma in this case over reason is the symptom of mental illness or damage. religions are much more oppressive if you ask me. they function without a…

Not sure if what you're talking about is French secularism, but I definitely agree with it up until the "mental illness" part. That part is where things become dangerous. Sure, churches and religions aren't special and they should follow the exact same rules as any other group of people and/or legal entity. But the moment you start mandating how people should think/what they should believe, even if their beliefs are ridiculous, you're going down one hell of a slippery slope.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#337

Post by passivate »

foolmeonce wrote: post #267
passivate wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened. In this particular case, what problem would open platforms solve? The laws in Pakistan still exist and the social problem is not addressed. Or are you implying that Apple and Google should be on the hook for solving religious prob…

You can make the same arguments for bribery. Nonetheless it is illegal for a US company to bribe people abroad and US companies end up selling off their holdings in banana republics. Why is this law good? The US has a long history of corporations owning too much in banana republics and bringing the US into pro-dictator political positions.

Can you explain what 'same argument' you're referring to in your comment?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#338

Post by sjwright »

LiberatedLlama wrote: post #303
dzmien wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure if it is that simple, and I think companies have little choice but to be greedy, because if they choose not to be greedy, another greedier company is all but guaranteed to prevail. I suppose it could be argued that companies the size of Apple and Google are not bound by the same constraints as smaller companies. But if they choose to stop doing business in Pakistan, what would become of all of their exi…

> But if they choose to stop doing business in Pakistan, what would become of all of their existing customers? What happens to Pakistani users of Debian, if Debian doesn't do business in Pakistan? Nothing. Those users are fine. iOS users would be in a bind only because Apple chose to create a system where users are left high-and-dry if/when Apple decides to no longer do business in any country.

A somewhat disingenuous argument. Debian isn’t physical hardware.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#339

Post by passivate »

stale2002 wrote: post #286
passivate wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened. In this particular case, what problem would open platforms solve? The laws in Pakistan still exist and the social problem is not addressed. Or are you implying that Apple and Google should be on the hook for solving religious prob…

> what problem would open platforms solve? If it was easier for people to sideload apps, or there were many competing app stores, then people could get around theses bans more easily. For example, if I could go to any website, on an iphone, and install an app very easily (Assume I choose to do so, via some setting), then it wouldn't matter as much if Apple banned the app from the app store. > whats stopping a country…

You can't reasonably expect a government to welcome a business into their country, while the business is working against the interests of said government. Apple and Google are businesses who operate in various countries with the objective of making money.

I still don't see why a tech company in the US should be in charge of engineering social behavior around the world. In my opinion, this is a dangerous path.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#340

Post by passivate »

klagermkii wrote: post #269
passivate wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened. In this particular case, what problem would open platforms solve? The laws in Pakistan still exist and the social problem is not addressed. Or are you implying that Apple and Google should be on the hook for solving religious prob…

Laws don't matter without the ability to enforce them. Apple and Google reap the benefits of forced centralised control, but that is what allows those countries to very easily enforce these kinds of laws.

Yes, I agree with what you said.
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