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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#231

Post by w0mbat »

zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

>"Would it be fair if England declared Catholics “unChristian” and banned their use if the term?"

I assume you know that happened all the time during the Reformation period with Henry the Eighth starting it, with a contrasting bit in the middle where Bloody Mary persecuted non-Catholics instead. They were bored and the internet hadn't been invented yet.

Once kings and queens weren't in charge, things got a lot more relaxed in that area.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#232

Post by fakedang »

shadowgovt wrote: post #173
username90 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened.

Those open platforms exist. Can the apps in question be downloaded in Pakistan via F-Droid?

What about the iOS users? AFAIK, it's more likely the Ahmadiyyas have iPhones since they are a relatively well-off community compared to the rest of Pakistan (or the Muslim world in general).

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#233

Post by babesh »

Bud wrote: post #224
babesh wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are hypocrites. They loudly proclaim how moral they are but when it is inconvenient/unprofitable their morality disappears.

Please cite sources showing Apple "loudly proclaiming how moral" it is.

https://youtu.be/x3nFe7EpWAY

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#234

Post by EEMac »

AlexandrB wrote: post #223
andrejserafim wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally right. Remember that capital doesn't have a nation. Companies registered in the US have to comply with US laws. But a legal entity in Pakistan have to obide by those rules. And if it's profitable - they will. Replace Pakistan with any other country name, the argument doesn't change. It's the law in that jurisdiction. You can't really mix and match the legislation you like and don't like. No idea if the partic…

So much for: "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." [1] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Gilmore

Ask Parler how well that works in the new era of FAANG dominance.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#235

Post by babesh »

Bud wrote: post #224
babesh wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are hypocrites. They loudly proclaim how moral they are but when it is inconvenient/unprofitable their morality disappears.

Please cite sources showing Apple "loudly proclaiming how moral" it is.

https://www.cnet.com/news/tim-cook-says-privacy-is-an-issue-...

Tim Cook says privacy is an issue of morality

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#236

Post by jmull »

AlexandrB wrote: post #216
jmull wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh The problem here lies with Pakistan, not Apple and Google. An alternate App Store operating in Pakistan would be subject to the same unjust laws as them. The most Apple and Google can do is leave the market. There's an argument for that, but that doesn't make those apps available in Pakistan, and, more importantly, doesn't end the oppression of Ahmadiyya Muslims in Pakistan. There are arguments against gatekeepi…

The problem lies with Pakistan and Apple and Google. If the apps in question could be installed without an App Store blocking them would be much harder. The entity creating the apps does not seem to have a commercial presence in Pakistan and the Pakistani government would have no jurisdiction over their actions. Having large commercial intermediaries with money on the line is really convenient when you want to get so…

You're suggesting that if Apple and Google create an app-loading mechanism that makes it difficult for them to block an app, that Pakistan will simply let them off the hook.

I don't think so. Why wouldn't Pakistan simply require them to block it anyway?

> ...since the people who run the site, including Zafar, do not live in Pakistan

Not relevant. In this case, Apple and Google do business in Pakistan. You can argue they need to leave the market. If so, let's hear it. (Personally, I don't think that would have an impact or be the right way to go even if it did.)

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#237

Post by babesh »

Bud wrote: post #224
babesh wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are hypocrites. They loudly proclaim how moral they are but when it is inconvenient/unprofitable their morality disappears.

Please cite sources showing Apple "loudly proclaiming how moral" it is.

Tim Cook: As reported by TechCrunch, he said: "I'm speaking to you from Silicon Valley, where some of the most prominent and successful companies have built their businesses by lulling their customers into complacency about their personal information. They're gobbling up everything they can learn about you and trying to monetize it. We think that's wrong. And it's not the kind of company that Apple wants to be."

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#238

Post by judge2020 »

babesh wrote: post #233
Bud wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please cite sources showing Apple "loudly proclaiming how moral" it is.

https://youtu.be/x3nFe7EpWAY

Your mistake was believing CEOs. The only thing you can count on is the invisible hand of capitalism, and today it requires both:

- operating in (wealthy) oppressive regimes

- denouncing those same oppressive regimes

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#239

Post by pas »

andrewnicolalde wrote: post #225
djrogers wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though. A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

By following this oppressive law to "serve those users," Apple and Google appear to be partaking in the oppression of those users.

Is oppression additive/cumulative/composable/transitive?

When someone has the power to do "fix" things but chooses not to, then that someone is partially responsible. Can A or G (or together) fix this?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#240

Post by Shivetya »

jmull wrote: post #128
zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

The (rather massive) flaw in your reasoning is the idea that Google and Apple are the solution to the problem. If you live in a society without religious freedom, that's a big problem, but Apple and Google can't fix it. If you care about the problem, it's important to understand this. If you succeed in getting people to focus on symptom of the problem and not the cause, you will help prevent it from being addressed.

Leave out the word religious. Lack of religious freedom usually comes along with a lot of other rights being trampled on.

We must admit that there are people in this world who do and say things we do not agree with. However the same system which expands from trampling on religious rights to other rights is no different than a system which tramples on another right and eventually tramples religion.

Corporations have little choice when faced with government intervention and we cannot seriously hold these corporations accountable for bowing down to political pressure elsewhere when we allow our own government a free pass for doing the same or turning a blind eye to it.

To change how businesses operate abroad we must change how our government operates. We should hold both to the same standard but government must lead because it has the courts, the arms, and the laws, to pressure one but the other has little it can do to pressure it

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