Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims • Hacker News Board

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#171

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 5:33 PM UTC

jshevek wrote: post #157

gadders wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't censorship, this is just a private company deciding who is and isn't allowed on their platform. All Ahmadiyya muslims have to do is start their own company to make mobile phones and probably their own search engine as well.

> This isn't censorship, this is just a private company deciding who is and isn't allowed on their platform This fits the definition of censorship. Maybe you meant to say this isn't governmental censorship? Edit: Poe's law

I think you miss gadders' point. This was the response when private companies "censored" the extreme right in response to January 6.

So, is it right in one case and wrong in the other? If so, why?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#172

Post by babesh » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 5:35 PM UTC

avianlyric wrote: post #149

babesh wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how Apple and Google are still fine with doing business in Pakistan.

What exactly is your point?

They are hypocrites. They loudly proclaim how moral they are but when it is inconvenient/unprofitable their morality disappears.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#173

Post by shadowgovt » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 5:35 PM UTC

username90 wrote: post #150

jmull wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The (rather massive) flaw in your reasoning is the idea that Google and Apple are the solution to the problem. If you live in a society without religious freedom, that's a big problem, but Apple and Google can't fix it. If you care about the problem, it's important to understand this. If you succeed in getting people to focus on symptom of the problem and not the cause, you will help prevent it from being addressed.

Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened.

Those open platforms exist. Can the apps in question be downloaded in Pakistan via F-Droid?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#174

Post by shadowgovt » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

jshevek wrote: post #153

vmception wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pakistan has a constitution. Appstores operate in Pakistan and comply with their government. There is no free speech analogy to countries with a different constitution.

> There is no free speech analogy to countries with a different constitution You use the phrase "free speech" as if it referred only to a legal requirement, and not also an ethical principle.

People disagree on the ethical principle of free speech, and arguing that Google or Apple have a duty to that ethical principle begs the question of the ethical principle itself.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#175

Post by selimthegrim » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #147

fmajid wrote: post #27

Pakistan's persecution of the Ahmadis is despicable (and that of Hindus, and Christians), and Apple and Google's meek compliance is craven.

I'd say I always found it strange how Ahmadis are universally persecuted in Pak, but a dozen way more funnier sects thrive. You constantly see some weird pirs, and "faith healers" on TV in Pakistan.

Are there still those wall chalkings for "aamil Junaid Bengali" all over Karachi? Edit: I guess not - https://www.dawn.com/news/918676/faith-healer-gets-three-yea...

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#176

Post by shadowgovt » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 5:41 PM UTC

DigiDigiorno wrote: post #165

username90 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet England feel way more secular than USA in practice, given how much Christianity seems to matter in US politics.

The highly religious nature of US settlers is directly connected to our secular freedoms. A lot of early settlers were pretty extreme practicers of their religions and faced persecution in Europe. They left to practice their religion in a place where they wouldn't be burned as a heretic. It's interesting that these opposing extremists were able to get along separately by agreeing to keep the government secular

It's an interesting piece of American history worth drilling down on.

The Virginia Statue of Religious Freedom originated from one of the Southern colonies, which tended towards more English mainstream religion (Jefferson himself was raised in the Church of England, but considered himself a Deist). It served as a sort of "non-aggression pact" between the religions, since the various sects of the Northern colonies had quite a bit of political power by virtue of concentration of their adherents and isolation from traditional European religious power.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#177

Post by sk5t » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 5:41 PM UTC

username90 wrote: post #150

jmull wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The (rather massive) flaw in your reasoning is the idea that Google and Apple are the solution to the problem. If you live in a society without religious freedom, that's a big problem, but Apple and Google can't fix it. If you care about the problem, it's important to understand this. If you succeed in getting people to focus on symptom of the problem and not the cause, you will help prevent it from being addressed.

Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened.

Just as we have laws that prevent US organizations from giving or taking bribes even in countries where bribes are legal (FCPA), and US laws prevent US individuals from overseas sex tourism which would be illegal on US soil, what prevents us from requiring US organizations not to participate in religious oppression, child exploitation, and other such acts?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#178

Post by Veen » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 5:45 PM UTC

DigiDigiorno wrote: post #165

username90 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet England feel way more secular than USA in practice, given how much Christianity seems to matter in US politics.

The highly religious nature of US settlers is directly connected to our secular freedoms. A lot of early settlers were pretty extreme practicers of their religions and faced persecution in Europe. They left to practice their religion in a place where they wouldn't be burned as a heretic. It's interesting that these opposing extremists were able to get along separately by agreeing to keep the government secular

Yes, and that’s related to the formation of the Church of England too. The religious settlements in the reign of Elizabeth I and others aimed to bring Catholic-leaning and Protestant-leaning believers together in one broad church, but it couldn’t accommodate every sect, so some were excluded from the national church, persecuted, and eventually left. You can still see the division today in high and low Anglican churches.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#179

Post by vmception » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 5:45 PM UTC

jshevek wrote: post #153

vmception wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pakistan has a constitution. Appstores operate in Pakistan and comply with their government. There is no free speech analogy to countries with a different constitution.

> There is no free speech analogy to countries with a different constitution You use the phrase "free speech" as if it referred only to a legal requirement, and not also an ethical principle.

Astute observation.

Try not to shoehorn something that has no consensus into every legal issue.

The entire discussion to me is as simple as I stated.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#180

Post by jshevek » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 5:45 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #174

jshevek wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no free speech analogy to countries with a different constitution You use the phrase "free speech" as if it referred only to a legal requirement, and not also an ethical principle.

People disagree on the ethical principle of free speech, and arguing that Google or Apple have a duty to that ethical principle begs the question of the ethical principle itself.

Begging the question is a specific logical fallacy which does not apply in this case.