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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#261

Post by DigiDigiorno »

mullingitover wrote: post #208
DigiDigiorno wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The highly religious nature of US settlers is directly connected to our secular freedoms. A lot of early settlers were pretty extreme practicers of their religions and faced persecution in Europe. They left to practice their religion in a place where they wouldn't be burned as a heretic. It's interesting that these opposing extremists were able to get along separately by agreeing to keep the government secular

> They left to practice their religion in a place where they wouldn't be burned as a heretic. Not true, at least in the obvious case of the Pilgrims of Plymouth. They were perfectly free to practice their religion when they lived in the Netherlands. They moved away because they wanted to create their own strict theocratic colony. The Netherlands, in their eyes, had too much religious freedom.

Even that specific example is a bit of a gray area imo. They were persecuted in England and tried to live in the Netherlands but found life hard to adjust and were also wanting to keep their English identity. So, it is more of persecution by the Church of England that pushed them away.

The Netherlands do get a point here for tolerance imo.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#262

Post by rajma »

exabrial wrote: post #258

Censorship by monopolies is worse than censorship by government

You have to be living in a free country to say that.

Indian government banned internet from Kashmir overnight without any notice. Most journos who say anything negative against gov are jailed without any court hearing.

I am all for pushing Google and Apple to change their stance on authoritarian governments. In this case, the ban is a direct result of gov censuring too.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#263

Post by MikeUt »

djrogers wrote: post #213
zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though. A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

Notice that Debian wasn't forced to take down any apps, which shows choice 3: Do not place themselves in the position of arbiters of what apps their users may run (either by technical locks, such as Apple, or by making alternatives extremely inconvenient, such as Google).

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#264

Post by zapdrive »

passivate wrote: post #187
username90 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened.

>Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened. In this particular case, what problem would open platforms solve? The laws in Pakistan still exist and the social problem is not addressed. Or are you implying that Apple and Google should be on the hook for solving religious prob…

Each of the two alternate steps you mentioned are an order of magnitude more difficult than just banning the app.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#265

Post by triceratops »

aNoob7000 wrote: post #12

I'm worried about the future of computing devices. With Apple and Google going with the walled garden approach, What's to stop any government from telling Apple and Google that an app is illegal?

The government is the sole decider of what's "illegal".

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#266

Post by snoshy »

pas wrote: post #239
andrewnicolalde wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By following this oppressive law to "serve those users," Apple and Google appear to be partaking in the oppression of those users.

Is oppression additive/cumulative/composable/transitive? When someone has the power to do "fix" things but chooses not to, then that someone is partially responsible. Can A or G (or together) fix this?

It sure seems additive in this case. Google & Apple can choose not to do business in regulatory regimes that are oppressive in nature. That obviously comes at a direct cost of lost revenue from abstinence. It is a deliberate choice to do business anywhere at all. The simple fix here as you say, would be to stop doing business when forced to enact business practices that further oppression.

Make no mistake, it is monetary greed that drives the choice to assent to this.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#267

Post by foolmeonce »

passivate wrote: post #187
username90 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened.

>Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened. In this particular case, what problem would open platforms solve? The laws in Pakistan still exist and the social problem is not addressed. Or are you implying that Apple and Google should be on the hook for solving religious prob…

You can make the same arguments for bribery. Nonetheless it is illegal for a US company to bribe people abroad and US companies end up selling off their holdings in banana republics.

Why is this law good? The US has a long history of corporations owning too much in banana republics and bringing the US into pro-dictator political positions.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#268

Post by jmull »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #253
jmull wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're suggesting that if Apple and Google create an app-loading mechanism that makes it difficult for them to block an app, that Pakistan will simply let them off the hook. I don't think so. Why wouldn't Pakistan simply require them to block it anyway? > ...since the people who run the site, including Zafar, do not live in Pakistan Not relevant. In this case, Apple and Google do business in Pakistan. You can argue t…

I'm suggesting that Apple and Google should not be in position to decide what users run on their apps. On Android, it is rather close to it (sans push notifications, which are not available without Google Play services, and without which background apps running is somewhat problematic), but Apple is a completely opposite.

Not sure you're understanding what I'm saying.

The Pakistani government can require that Apple and Google block certain apps and require that they maintain their ability to do so.

I don't dispute that Apple and Google do gatekeeping. They do. We can discuss the pros and cons of it. But that is simply not issue here.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#269

Post by klagermkii »

passivate wrote: post #187
username90 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened.

>Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened. In this particular case, what problem would open platforms solve? The laws in Pakistan still exist and the social problem is not addressed. Or are you implying that Apple and Google should be on the hook for solving religious prob…

Laws don't matter without the ability to enforce them.

Apple and Google reap the benefits of forced centralised control, but that is what allows those countries to very easily enforce these kinds of laws.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#270

Post by unethical_ban »

jmull wrote: post #135
FriedrichN wrote: post #20

Just another reason why you don't want companies like Apple and Google to be the gatekeepers. Technology can set you free, but only if you let it. If you don't, it can easily become a new tool of oppression.

Sigh The problem here lies with Pakistan, not Apple and Google. An alternate App Store operating in Pakistan would be subject to the same unjust laws as them. The most Apple and Google can do is leave the market. There's an argument for that, but that doesn't make those apps available in Pakistan, and, more importantly, doesn't end the oppression of Ahmadiyya Muslims in Pakistan. There are arguments against gatekeepi…

>An alternate App Store operating in Pakistan would be subject to the same unjust laws as them.

Would they, though? How can you stop arbitrary APK downloads from the internet? Or a site that constantly changes its domain? Look at how blocking places like The Pirate Bay goes.

I think there is more to be said for the impact of Apple and Google leaving the Pakistani market than you grant.

Google is willing to leave the Australian market because they don't want to share revenues with the newspapers they skim for headlines, but they will suppress religious minorities to comply with theocratic governments.

These Western companies do not hold any values.

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