Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

841–850 of 892 posts

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#841

Post by Deestan »

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #12

> So my new approach is “fuck you”. None of the Wayland detractors have a clue. Mmmmkay. That's a pretty broad statement, good luck with that attitude! > I’ve tried appealing to reason and rationally debunking each lie that some Wayland detractor flavor-of-the-week is touting to tow the party line, but it didn’t work. I guess he's referring to this post? https://drewdevault.com/2019/02/10/Wayland-misconceptions-de...

Quite a few of these are of the form:

"Wayland doesn't X!"

"Actually, it's on purpose or X that is not working on Wayland because [reason]."

Sure but that doesn't make it work.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#842

Post by kuschku »

lmm wrote: post #828
kuschku wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m using (except for firefox) 100% Qt applications under Ubuntu Budgie (which is a bit like elementary but with Wayland support). The result is good enough for my use case, I don’t have to deal with toy applications and I can use the full crisp resolution. And thanks to standard protocols, I can use KDE software like KDE Spectacle as screenshot tool or screensharing with Slack, Teams, Jitsi under Budgie just fine.

> I’m using (except for firefox) 100% Qt applications under Ubuntu Budgie (which is a bit like elementary but with Wayland support). If your only non-Qt application was Firefox, what was your problem under X11? Certainly for me having to switch to Gnome's WM/panels/etc. much would be more disruptive than switching browsers. (You might find Firefox valuable enough to be worth switching your whole DE for, in which case…

I’m a dev, and as it turns out, as firefox is more standards-compliant than chrome, if something runs in firefox, it’ll pretty much run in every browser (the opposite is not true, as blink has lots of custom extensions to the standard you might use accidentally).

Plus I use firefox lockwise as password manager.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#843

Post by kaba0 »

SEJeff wrote: post #514
kuschku wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s true, but that’d mean running a 900 series Nvidia card or even earlier, which wouldn’t be able to handle multiple 4K monitors natively at 60Hz with or without the proprietary driver. Which means that the author bought an nvidia GPU at a point in time when it was already obvious that nvidia would treat linux as a second class citizen. And even if not, you should first complain to the company you paid hundreds o…

Nvidia treats Linux as a first class citizen. In fact, the CUDA stuff on Linux is industry leading. As a result, machine learning on Nvidia is really good. I work with Nick Wilt, the author of the book on CUDA. Nvidia on Linux is amazing. Nvidia on Linux without X11 (for guis) is not, sadly.

Well, there is a solution: either buy another video card for graphics, or use iGPU. And leave the nvidia one for CUDA only.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#844

Post by kaba0 »

R0b0t1 wrote: post #459
_coveredInBees wrote: post #137

So many comments here are missing the point of the rant. If it doesn't work for you, fine, move on. But it takes a special type of asshole to go around harassing maintainers and continuously putting down their hard work and in many cases just making overly broad and incorrect generalizations or propagating outright lies. There is a big difference between constructive criticism and what drove the author to write that…

He's saying, literally, > So my new approach is “fuck you”. None of the Wayland detractors have a clue. Lumping everyone who may not have a rosy view of Wayland together. There's a good comment by an (alleged) pentester mentioning how Wayland doesn't really buy you that much. He's right. The bigger issue is lack of isolation within a gid. I can still debug your terminal and try to get your root password.

But in the same comment thread by the pentester, it turns out that what wayland does is a necessary step for security that X without embedded X sessions simply lacks. It is not sufficient but noone said so and it would be stupid to even assume that eg. a kernel bug can’t be used for escalation just because someone runs Wayland.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#845

Post by regularfry »

folkrav wrote: post #773
regularfry wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, "why would you want to do that" is dismissive, defensive gatekeeping, typically used to imply that the questioner is an idiot, whereas "why do you want to do that" extracts a reason, bad or not, that can be worked with.

I'm fairly active on the Python slack channel, and this very question comes up really often when people ask for help, and in my experience, is basically never meant as disrespectful. As for the small differences in semantics, I'm not a native speaker, neither have outright negative connotations to me, but I feel like getting tripped up on such a small thing - and simultaneously assuming the interlocutor's intentions…

The semantic difference is not small. "Would", using the subjunctive, implies that the "want" is theoretical, that the person asking is in some sense trying to come up with a hypothetical situation that can be written off as being unrealistic or a silly edge case. Using it diminishes the experience of the questioner and is intrinsically disrespectful. The fact that people have got used to hearing it so much that they use it without questioning how rude and unwelcoming it is says more about that community than about the grammar.

"Do", in the present tense, does not carry those connotations. It implies "I have acknowledged that your want is present and real, but I need more information about your context to be able to help."

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#846

Post by kaba0 »

hyperion2010 wrote: post #490

However bad people think X11 is, the engineering decision (or more likely lack of any intentional design decisions beyond the initial extremely narrow use cases?) to "replace" a huge portion of its functionality with windowing toolkits is a disaster for open source. I have written about this before, but the amount of waste and rework that it induces is completely unsustainable. If you want to see another generation w…

Gnome developers are the ones advocating for “dbus everything”, wlroots prefers wayland protocol extensions.

And since no one company is behind the linux ecosystem, everyone works on what they want to work on, so every change is fundamentally starts with chaos in linux. But it will stabilize on a good enough solution (eg. I don’t see much ill with the current 3-4 implementation of the protocol with one of them being a minimal “lib”, that can be used for small niche window managers to build on)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#847

Post by kaba0 »

dooglius wrote: post #508
Nextgrid wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a systemd issue per-se. Whatever process it’s trying to stop is taking its time. Systemd doesn’t explicitly know what to do and most likely falls back to a reasonable compile-time default. The other comments already explained how to change the timeout per-unit, but I wonder how would you want a “perfect” init system to handle this? Hang forever until the process dies without any message (as far as I know…

The Windows behavior (prompt the user to kill anything manually) seems like the ideal behavior. Of course, this is tricky wrt dependency issues (e.g. if remote, you need to keep sshd and its dependencies alive in order to implemnent such a prompt), but hanging forever seems like a preferable fallback.

And that is the responsibility of the display manager (and it is sort of what happens under gnome). Systemd had as default KillUserProcesses (it may not be the exact name but it was something like that, I didn’t check it) set to true, and that caused many to hate on the whole project because I don’t know tmux and other apps that override the “normal” behavior on signals lost their sessions. So now it usually defaults to false, though I tend to override it to true.

The thing is, “with enough users someone will depend on both the public and private parts of your APIs” is true (and I am sure I butchered up this quote as well)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#848

Post by kaba0 »

floatboth wrote: post #826
Too wrote: post #712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flash wear and disk write ack latency would shoot up the roof for that to work unfortunately.

Only if you care deeply about always having the latest data, rather than just consistent data. I'm talking more along the lines of ZFS – I can always pull the plug without worrying about FS consistency, because the FS always goes between valid, consistent states atomically.

What about having for example libreoffice running with unsaved changes? (And I know it does backups regularly but not after every character)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#849

Post by valand »

ddingus wrote: post #699
valand wrote: post #690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some domains stability and correctness is a feature. You can't omit stability in life-critical software for example. On the other hand software's usefulness can outinfluence unstability, if there are no alternatives.

Serious question: when are there not alternatives? The point being made here is not that it always must be stable. It is all about how often stability is not a priority when it could and or should be. And in the no alternative scenario, it can be compelling to continue to ignore robustness to get growth and lock in. When that happens, stability, robustness often stay in the back seat for a large fraction of the produ…

> when are there not alternatives?

Example: Steam cloud save. Countless time I have to force quit Steam's background service because Cyberpunk 2077 and GTA V freeze while saving.

Steam doesn't show the launch game button, even though the game is killed from task manager.

There are no heartbeat like mechanism to keep in check the game process state.

And there are no alternative to launch the game that I bought from steam, so the instability becomes little of nuisance.

But that's a minor issue where unstable features are unimportant ones.

> It is all about how often stability is not a priority when it could and or should be.

And I'm on your team too. That's why my argument is that stability IS A feature too. Countering grant parent's argument that says stability is ignorable as long as the features are validated by the market.

> And in the no alternative scenario, it can be compelling to continue to ignore robustness to get growth and lock in.

As a paranoid user I agree this has been a nightmare. I constantly have to make sure I wont get locked in to services that I pay for, and often time I find myself using open source solutions rather than paid one because of the same reason.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#850

Post by vetinari »

utxaa wrote: post #809
vetinari wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Slack didn't bother building with `rtc_use_pipewi­re=true` and that's Wayland's problem? Complain to Slack.

complaining won't help me join a meeting.

You can join a meeting; you cannot share your desktop. You cannot share your desktop, because that software is buggy and without complaining, that bug will be never fixed.
Post reply on HN