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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#291
post #250

I know the author is reading HN. I use sway everyday and i freaking love it. Mixing monitors with different resolutions AND different refresh rates all running at their native speeds with no tearing, all while keeping my nice i3 Shortcuts? FREAKING AWESOME! Does EVERYTHING work? Nope, somethings are broken, some require config changes or workarounds. I have an XFCE desktop installed as a backup for work when i know i…

I also run sway every day. I get tear-free video that way, monitors turn on faster, etc.

Only thing I'm missing is copy and paste isn't working with Chrome Remote Desktop.

Overall it's been great and smooth experience since I switched last year.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#292
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every 6 months I try switching to Wayland. I spend an hour or so using it for regular desktop gnome use and fixing minor bugs (ie. The kind I can fix with a config tweak). I then switch back again because it just isn't there yet. Recent issues: * The brightness control for my screen doesn't work with it. * The mouse sometimes lags * Graphical corruption in Chromium when on webgl sites. * Blank screen after resume fro…

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but there's no such thing as "switching to Wayland". What most people mean when they "switch to Wayland" is that they're switching from Gnome on X11 to a "pure Gnome" stack that uses Wayland and a bunch of other Freedesktop standards for interopability. There is absolutely no code from the "Wayland project" running there, because the Wayland implementation is Gnome's own (it's…

>> What you're observing is not "Wayland not being there yet", it's Gnome not being there yet. All of these deficiencies have nothing to do with Wayland itself.

While technically true, that is a bit of deflection. In some cases none of the compositors have implemented certain things yet.

My biggest issue with gnome is that it doesnt remember where my windows were last time I ran an app. Someone over in way-land probably should have told them that would become a their-problem so it could be addressed it sooner. Same with window decorations, they should be handled by the compositor IMHO. Sometimes a new thing should come with recommendations for use.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea i'm confused by this line. I'm a Linux-desktop-noob, but i was going to use i3-Wayland, aka Sway, and because i have an Nvidia i was told don't bother. Nvidia Drivers + Wayland sound broken? Now that may not be true.. but it seemed clear cut. I wanted to try Wayland really bad because i have a multi-DPI monitor setup, and Xorg is awful at that. Yet, it seemed too early. Nvidia isn't exactly some niche product. No…

NVidia is broken, not Wayland. They refuse to implement the same APIs as everyone other driver does. Wayland is 10 years old, and extremely stable. If it isn't working properly it's either your driver vendor or your desktop environment that is to blame.

> NVidia is broken, not Wayland. They refuse to implement the same APIs as everyone other driver does.

I'm extremely sympathetic to this argument, and I actually agree with ddevault's decision not to support NVidia in Sway. I think as an Open Source maintainer you don't have an obligation to burn yourself out solving a problem that is NVidia's fault, and we need real pressure on NVidia to stop being completely awful.

However.

Linux is at the point where I am able to start recommending it to ordinary people, and even technical people who are used to Windows. One the selling points I use is that a lot of hardware "just works" in Linux. NVidia is not ddevault's problem to solve, but people buy NVidia cards, and regardless of who's fault it is, if someone walks up to me and asks about switching to Linux or using a tiling window manager, I am not going to have a conversation with them about graphics cards. I'm going to point them towards X-compatible software that gets good performance regardless of their graphics card.

Doesn't mean it's anyone's fault that I can't recommend Wayland to everyone, but I can't recommend Wayland to everyone.

And I am on the Wayland hype train. I don't like X11, I want to run Wayland. In most cases, I would be defending Wayland right now. But if one of the conditions of switching over is "buy a new graphics card", if it's "redo all of your linux-wacom setup"[0], if it's running an entire embedded X session just to get Emacs working[1], if it's that common applications just don't work right now, then that's not ready for prime time. Those aren't problems that the Wayland devs can fix, but until they get fixed, I just can't in good conscience tell people that the Wayland ecosystem is mature and ready for regular usage.

The moment I have to talk to someone about throwing out hardware, I'm recommending them to stay on X. I don't care who's to blame, people want software that just works, and I don't feel confident that Wayland just works. I'm not going to recommend every i3 NVidia user throw away their graphics card, that's not a real solution. I sympathize with the devs who are being hounded to solve problems that aren't their responsibility[2], but I also sympathize with the users who are just as much not to blame for any of this. It is also not their problem to solve when they can instead just use an existing stack that works today. They have zero obligation to play Where's Waldo with the maintainers of a dozen projects just to build a working system.

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[0]: Do equivalently powerful tools to linux-wacom even exist for Wayland right now? I can't find out. There's basically zero documentation that exists on this that I can find, compared to an extensive Arch guide about rebinding keys under X11, multiple helpful utilities like xsetwacom that are pretty well documented, and dozens of blog posts and forums that are troubleshooting even obscure issues. That's not a narrow use case, my computer is an art station. I need to know before I switch that my Cintiq will work perfectly, and DuckDuckGo doesn't know the answer to that question.

[1]: Emacs is finally working to get rid of its X dependencies, but it's still not part of the main release, I'd still need to switch to compiling Emacs myself, which... no.

[2]: And I'm also sympathetic to arguments that this just takes time, and as people start to switch more utilities will be written and driver support will get better. But it's taking a really long time. And I don't know where NVidia fits on that spectrum, because I'm not confident that they're going to magically stop being awful any time soon. Maybe someone else will write a compatibility layer around the driver or something? Eventually? Waiting for NVidia to go out of business and their hardware to vanish isn't feasible.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones). It really makes people angry when things don't work the same anymore, let alone when it doesn't even work anymore for their use case. Like you note, this isn't a problem unique to Linux/"free Unixy OSes". In some ways Linux is actually worse than others…

I think a big issue is there's no discipline in the Linux community. The Kernel team has done an amazing job of preserving ABI compatibility through every last byte, but then you look at projects like glib or GNOME which seem to pride themselves on huge, sweeping, changes and don't care if downstream consumers are hurt by the changes. Edit: glib not glibc

The Linux kernel team does not preserve ABI in almost all scenarios, just only specifically with the syscall interface. Everything else is not stable.

The GNU C standard library has binary backwards compatibility going back 20 years. They take great pains to preserve that. Are you thinking of glib instead of glibc? The former is from GNOME, and the latter is not.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emacs

Emacs works perfectly fine under xwayland. The recent pgtk feature branch does not use X anymore under wayland. What is not working for you?

Yes, when Wayland acts like X then X apps sometimes work. In the process you abandon the security and performance features of Wayland.

Getting xwayland working is another story. I can't seem to get it to work at all on my PinePhone; but to Wayland's credit, the phone crashes for all sorts of reasons.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#298
post #14

I’m using a Dell UP2718Q (3840x2160, 144dpi, 60Hz) and a Fujitsu Siemens P17-2 (1024x1280, 96dpi, 75Hz) side by side, and without Wayland this setup isn’t even possible to get working properly. Sadly, KDE still doesn’t support it nicely under Wayland (so I moved to Ubuntu Budgie), but under X11 it’s entirely impossible to run it properly, as except for Qt nothing supports mixed DPI, or mixed refresh rates properly. O…

And yet on every other OS, users can take screenshots and use virtual keyboards... It's not because X's security model is broken that the solution is 'we'll just remove that functionality'.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#299
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always found systemd to be fine (I'm not a sysadmin, just prefer Linux on my PCs). PulseAudio did have some growing pains, though. I don't remember them exactly, but I remember having to tinker way too much to get apps to work together/correctly between ALSA and PulseAudio, etc. I still have a finicky laptop that REFUSES to do audio over HDMI unless I boot the machine with the HDMI cable plugged in already. No real…

> I always found systemd to be fine (I'm not a sysadmin, just prefer Linux on my PCs). I mostly agree, although I prefer OpenRC personally. I was bit by [* ] Stopping service 1:30 remaining too many times to really like SystemD, although I tolerate it on my daily driver these days.

This is not a systemd issue per-se. Whatever process it’s trying to stop is taking its time. Systemd doesn’t explicitly know what to do and most likely falls back to a reasonable compile-time default.

The other comments already explained how to change the timeout per-unit, but I wonder how would you want a “perfect” init system to handle this?

Hang forever until the process dies without any message (as far as I know this is how legacy shell-script-based inits would handle it)?

Kill the process immediately and risk data loss?

Behave as-is but with a lower default delay?

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