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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#571

Post by ywei3410 »

BoysenberryPi wrote: post #106
creata wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's not too much trouble, can you list the software you use which doesn't work on Wayland?

No problem, the biggest ones I tried were Godot, Krita, and Steam. Godot does not run on Wayland although support seems to be planned somewhere down the pipeline. Krita "runs" on Wayland but a lot of the features do not work nor does pen support last time I checked. Steam just doesn't work. Edit: A commenter on this thread mentioned Emacs. I have not tried that as I have recently switched to Emacs but if that is true…

Emacs and Steam seem to work for me - I've been using it with XWayland for around a year now.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#572

Post by caaqil »

_ktx2 wrote: post #535
SEJeff wrote: post #191

The author is kind of a jerk. He complains that users don't like wayland when he entirely and wholesale rejects anyone who wants to use an nvidia graphics card. Maintainers with attitudes like this are why we can't have nice things: https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html Sadly, the OSS driver doesn't support the 4k monitors I use for work well enough to actually use day to day. So my option is to use…

Drew Devault is an interesting character. I find some of the ways he chooses to express himself to be pretty poor most of the time . That said, Drew does come from a place of genuine caring, erratic, divisive, and brusque opinions aside. You just have to learn to filter out most of the useless anger and frustration he tends to speak with. All that to say, nvidia doesn't really do the work to play ball in Linux with W…

> You just have to learn to filter out most of the useless anger and frustration he tends to speak with.

Or, here is a wild idea, we stop looking for some "wisdom" in what people who often express themselves this poorly write. Most of what this "thought leader" writes that I happened to read have the same punchline, and it got old pretty fast.

Sometimes, stuff is just garbage. You don't have to look through 99% of the garbage to find some 1% that is supposedly not as garbage.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#573

Post by Lammy »

floatboth wrote: post #422
erk__ wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also worth noticing, there are other operating systems that does not use the Linux kernel. FreeBSD does have an official Nvidia driver (although a pretty limited in term of framework suppot) and Nouveau is not ported anymore. The AMD drivers are a port of the Linux drivers and are usually some versions behind because it is work to port them. So it means that I cannot try out sway on my laptop, and as I am not plannin…

I don't think Nouveau ever was ported before. I actually tried it myself (unsuccessfully). Kind of a painful codebase. > usually some versions behind Currently on 5.4-5.5, only Big Navi is not supported yet. With the state of the GPU market right now, we'll probably catch up before the prices on those become sane :D Funnily enough, it's Intel that's slowing the updates down more than anything. amdgpu is rarely an ear…

It was a very long time ago (long enough for 'xf86' naming) https://www.freshports.org/x11-drivers/xf86-video-nouveau

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#574

Post by ddevault »

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #506
__s wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll work with Nouveau. Nvidia refuses to implement an interface in their driver every other graphics driver implements Drew wrote a blog entirely devoted to the Nvidia issue: https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html

Wow, so he writes an article about people being assholes about him not writing free extra stuff, and this other article saying literally “nvidia- fuck you” (and its “shitty consumers”) for not writing this other free extra stuff. He says that’s treating Linux users like shit, when a massive part of nvidia’s business is supporting Linux (GPGPU stuff), which works fantastically. Reading OP, I figured it was righteously…

Author here.

>so he writes an article about people being assholes about him not writing free extra stuff

I did write that extra free stuff, and I'm arguing that some people are being assholes because they perpetuate the lie that I didn't do the free work, and because feature "foo" doesn't work, project bar must be bad. But feature "foo" does work, and using that falsehood to say project "bar" is bad is a dick move. This is the "horseshit" that's pissing me off.

The Nvidia issue is different: Nvidia goes out of their way to prevent their hardware from being used for this purpose. For example, they use signed firmwares that we simply cannot use for implementing the features we need, relying on cryptography to lock us out of their platform unless we use their driver. Then that driver doesn't support what we need. Nvidia deliberately prevents us from putting in the effort. They have created an artificial monpoloy on the required labor, then refuse to do it.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#575

Post by AnthonyMouse »

cortesoft wrote: post #561
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones). It really makes people angry when things don't work the same anymore, let alone when it doesn't even work anymore for their use case. As well it should. Because now things that used to take three seconds will take 15 minutes for a month until you learn…

Your calculation doesn't take into account the time savings for brand new users. Since they don't have to unlearn anything, they start saving the time immediately. Not saying it is right or wrong, but a lot of the upsetting changes for existing users are for the benefit of new users.

We can start with the contention that that isn't true. Even for a new user, the change is going to bring with it a bunch of new bugs because the new code is new, and invalidate all of the solutions to problems that people can search for on the internet until the new thing is as old as the old thing (at which point somebody tries to replace it again).

Also, "users" are "people" and the average adult lifespan (18-78) is around 60 years. That implies that the time for the "new users" to become half of the user base is around 30 years, so what does that say about how often it makes sense to do this?

But suppose you're right. Then the solution is competition. Don't take away the old thing, provide both. If the new users want to use the new thing and the old users want to use the old thing, great.

And then if the new users still want to use the old thing you've got a pretty good red flag that you messed it up.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#576

Post by lytedev »

red_trumpet wrote: post #545
ceronman wrote: post #510

I'm writing this from my Fedora laptop where Wayland works extremely well. I want to say thank you to all the developers behind it! I know that the process of moving to Wayland has been slow and hard. It is definitely not an easy task. I know it's frustrating when something that used to work does not any more. I know the process is not complete and there are still a few things that might not work well. But for god sa…

> If you think that X is better, just use it, and live with its unfixable issues. Out of curiosity: What are those issues with X? On my day to day use of Xubuntu I don't encounter any problems. What would I gain from switching to Wayland?

The main issues for me were HiDPI support and screen tearing (when not running a compositor)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#577

Post by CountSessine »

gnulinux wrote: post #204
DCKing wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but there's no such thing as "switching to Wayland". What most people mean when they "switch to Wayland" is that they're switching from Gnome on X11 to a "pure Gnome" stack that uses Wayland and a bunch of other Freedesktop standards for interopability. There is absolutely no code from the "Wayland project" running there, because the Wayland implementation is Gnome's own (it's…

Why does this distinction matter? Gnome on X works perfectly fine, Gnome on Wayland does not. Why does it matter it to state that Wayland is a protocol, not the implementation?

That's funny, because for me, it's exactly the opposite. I use Gnome on Wayland/Mutter and it works great - I've never had a linux desktop that had such great UI rendering. Gnome on X doesn't work and is buggy - it's riddled with graphical glitches that other platforms (even smartphones and tablets) don't suffer from. How can that be considered to "work"?

But my requirements are different from yours.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#578

Post by ChiefOBrien »

I'm tired of this pro-Wayland horseshit

You have been trying to reinvent the wheel for a decade and splitting the whole community on petty shit like this, halving development effort on an already non-popular platform, and yet you wonder why people are angry. Instead of evolving X11 and deprecating old features to drop tech debt over time, you went and created your snowflake project and paraded over how much more secure your project is when it doesn't have features to this day, features which are working perfectly on X11. This blog post is the epitome of the whole wayland development group's selfishness. You did this thing for yourselves, for your own comfort and feel-good bullshit, not for the whole community. The Linux ecosystem has suffered too much for no good reason, to the detriment of user experience and market share.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#579

Post by bluGill »

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #251
bluGill wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone in the XFCE camp needs to roll up their sleeves and get it working. This is not an easy task, KDE and GNOME have been at it for many years, but it is doable. I don't use or follow XFCE myself, but a quick search suggests the developers are working on it, though they won't get there anytime soon. (most of what I can find seems to be from 4+ years ago, so not anytime soon could be yesterday for all I know)

You know, unlike GNOME, rolling up sleeves with XFCE4 doesn't come with any kind of Red Hat/IBM sponsorship whatsoever.

Most of KDE doesn't get that either and they have support for wayland.

I can excuse XFCE for being slow. However that is very different from the claim that because XFCE is a bit slow that Wayland is in general bad.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#580

Post by ddingus »

cycloptic wrote: post #542
innagadadavida wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most of them are too frequent, automatic, plus they are not actual improvements. It seems like the developers and product managers want to show progress but the uses just want you to fix boring bugs. It will help if the product folks think of memory, perf and stability as very important features and stop chasing new features for the sake of it.

I'm sure you know this, but memory perf and stability are secondary to supporting the hard business requirements. For low-cost products intended for mass consumption, a small feature that brings in millions of new users from a new audience is usually going to be more worth it to the business than optimizing for old hardware that doesn't bring in money anymore.

Those problems have crept up into new hardware, and depending on the product, "old" may be more than a decade, because users do not need new hardware and increasing numbers of them know that.

Memory performance is not too big of a deal, IMHO given the last decade of hardware, but stability is.

Lost mental state is generally as painful as data is. People hate it viscerally.

I have seen 4 figure software get replaced by 5 figure software over that alone. 5 figure stuff runs for weeks to months at a time. 4 figure can crash daily or more often.

Stability was a primary selling point for me, and I used to maintain a session for that purpose. "My session has been active for months and 10's of projects, lets open your sample data and walk through it...." Did that on a reasonable, but not great Lenovo. Hibernate, sleep, hibernate, sleep...

Win 7 too, lol.

I came from IRIX. I would go the better part of a year, apps running, system up, all ready to go. Spoiled. Win 2k was good, Win 7 matched it, and Win 10 is solid, except for forced updates.

I would never, ever devalue stability. People who are focused, task intensive, live it, love it, will argue they need and are worth it.

Not sure they are wrong.

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