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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#561

Post by cortesoft »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #538
patrickaljord wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can certainly understand the frustration at having to deal with a community that gets annoyed at anything that changes simply because they're already so used to the garbage pile they have that they now hold the delusion that it's actually not garbage. It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones).…

> It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones). It really makes people angry when things don't work the same anymore, let alone when it doesn't even work anymore for their use case. As well it should. Because now things that used to take three seconds will take 15 minutes for a month until you learn…

Your calculation doesn't take into account the time savings for brand new users. Since they don't have to unlearn anything, they start saving the time immediately.

Not saying it is right or wrong, but a lot of the upsetting changes for existing users are for the benefit of new users.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#562

Post by DCKing »

spion wrote: post #518
DCKing wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly think this complaint is completely bogus. This is not something conceptual about Wayland, or intrinsic to it. Any display protocol can have multiple client/server implementations. It just so happens that most of the free desktop standardized around the X.org implementation for X11, but even for X11 there were multiple client and server implementations. The second thing is that software duplication efforts…

Once there are 2 implementations already, a 3rd reusable one won't fix the problem (the problem being that the users need to configure everything in 3 places). What you want at that point is to agree where to read and write common configuration. I'm not sure this is likely to happen either, as gnome has gsettings/dconf and kde has simple files and you will now awaken the plaintext vs efficiency dragon.

Right, I agree that differences of opinions between implementations is probably not productive. I was responding to the notion that this situation is somehow directly attributable to Wayland's design, which is bogus.

The current situation is just how it coincidentally turned out - there's just not always a clear direction on the free desktop (and that's even what many people like about it). If wlroots or something similar had existed earlier, then this probably would have turned out differently but c'est la vie.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#563

Post by betterunix2 »

dancek wrote: post #342
Miraste wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience Gnome is the worst major FOSS project for this. Ever since Gnome 3 the design philosophy of all of their projects seems to be "find out what the users want and do the opposite."

I've heard this from a couple of power users before. But maybe GNOME does not optimize for power users?

What is a "power user?" Sounds like the same nonsense we hear from proprietary software vendors all the time, "That feature is for enterprise users."

Gnome more or less optimizes for minimal configurability, the theory being that most users want the UI to be as clean as possible. They do not particularly care if someone would like to be able to change some annoying behavior, because they thought that behavior made sense and they feel the cost of adding a button to disable it, or even burying a configuration bit in gconf, is far too high. Of course, they do not have the resources needed to run actual user studies the way Apple, Google, and Microsoft do, so their idea of what users want is mostly based on their own ideas about what users want (since they usually dismiss feature requests from their actual users, because those are "power users").

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#564

Post by icefo »

toyg wrote: post #522
patrickaljord wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can certainly understand the frustration at having to deal with a community that gets annoyed at anything that changes simply because they're already so used to the garbage pile they have that they now hold the delusion that it's actually not garbage. It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones).…

> the main use cases of whoever was funding the project (mainly redhat) But this is a real problem: it's not good that the Linux ecosystem has been reduced to "we shall eat whatever dogfood Redhat cooks for us". Wayland didn't even start as a RH project, iirc, and didn't really gain any traction for ages, but now it's a Big Deal because RH pushes it...?

I agree that's not good but redhat seems to be one of the few organization that pays developers to improve parts of the linux ecosystem. So when redhat endorse a project it probably means it tries to address some pain points of the status quo.

That's how I see systemd and wayland. For systemd the consensus seems to be that's it's better than the previous init systems as most distributions have adopted it. It seems we're going in that direction with wayland but we'll see how it goes.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#565

Post by taneliv »

kuschku wrote: post #25
freeone3000 wrote: post #13

I'm really tired of this Wayland horseshit. If there was an actual reason for users to use it, fine, but instead it breaks forwarding and vnc and xclip, and for what exactly? Why should I upgrade?

Wayland improves: - Multi-Monitor support (especially with multiple different resolutions) - HiDPI support (even if some of your programs haven’t been updated for that yet) Now why does wayland break xclip and vnc? Because "every program is a keylogger by default and can see any event, look at the contents of any window" is a major security issue, especially as it means the entire security model of screen lockers or…

I wish I had the problem of having multiple monitors connected to one computer or (any of) them having too high resolution wrt. physical size! That said, thanks for reminding that all processes listening (potentially) to all events on X11. Switched now to Ubuntu's flavor of Wayland, let's see how that goes.

(Last time I tried Wayland, it was because an update changed the default to it, without me noticing. Something important to me was then broken, and I had to switch back to Xorg, manually. That left a bad taste in mouth.)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#566

Post by siver_john »

danShumway wrote: post #293
robert_foss wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NVidia is broken, not Wayland. They refuse to implement the same APIs as everyone other driver does. Wayland is 10 years old, and extremely stable. If it isn't working properly it's either your driver vendor or your desktop environment that is to blame.

> NVidia is broken, not Wayland. They refuse to implement the same APIs as everyone other driver does. I'm extremely sympathetic to this argument, and I actually agree with ddevault's decision not to support NVidia in Sway. I think as an Open Source maintainer you don't have an obligation to burn yourself out solving a problem that is NVidia's fault, and we need real pressure on NVidia to stop being completely awful.…

For [0], libinput from what I've seen is supposed to take the place of linux-wacom. However I have only been playing with wacom fairly recently (I got one as a Christmas present) and haven't explored linux-wacom to see what is missing. I know with respect to libinput I have had difficulties getting the extra buttons on my tablet to work and some things have been a bit rough, but I don't know if that is due to me not understanding something or what.

TL;DR Theoretically libinput is a linux-wacom replacement.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#567

Post by aeroevan »

away_throw wrote: post #399
axaxs wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't seem as straightforward as 'click the screenshare button to share your screen', which is how it works in xorg mode. Editing since I can't reply - I didn't mean to come across as rude, sorry for that. Just explaining that as a user, it doesn't work out of the box. Having to explain to users to do the above is not an ideal solution.

That's true. Hopefully Ozone will be officially released in Chromium/Electron which will make this as simple as that. At least in Discord, XOrg screenshare always gave me trouble.

There's also pipewire which doesn't depend on ozone, but is optional I guess. What's even worse, slack doesn't allow sharing from chrome which just works for MS Teams via pipewire.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#568

Post by africanboy »

kuschku wrote: post #290
SEJeff wrote: post #191

The author is kind of a jerk. He complains that users don't like wayland when he entirely and wholesale rejects anyone who wants to use an nvidia graphics card. Maintainers with attitudes like this are why we can't have nice things: https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html Sadly, the OSS driver doesn't support the 4k monitors I use for work well enough to actually use day to day. So my option is to use…

Or you start buying a GPU that actually supports linux? If you buy a proprietary product with no actual linux support, then why are you complaining to the unpaid volunteer to fix it, and not the multi-billion dollar company you just made several hundred dollars richer?

> Or you start buying a GPU that actually supports linux?

People usually don't get to chose what HW the company buys for them and, anecdotally, "the component X doesn't work with Wayland" rarely makes a difference.

I've tried Wayland many times a year over the past 5 years.

I still only get a black screen.

X11 just works.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#569

Post by cycloptic »

utborin wrote: post #549
foldr wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>People in charge of large FOSS projects like Gnome should not pretend it's just some hobby project they can do whatever they want with. Those projects are essentially public infrastructure and should be treated as such. It's not their personal plaything. They're not pretending. I'm afraid you're laboring under a misconception. Nothing obliges the GNOME team to accede to the wishes of people who contribute nothing to…

I understand where this thinking comes from but I still think it's kind of a simplistic attitude. People depend on the technology they use. When you convince someone to rely on something you've produced (and, crucially, continue working on), I think you do actually create a duty to be responsive to them. They depend on your work. Are we really so limited in our ethical thinking that we require an exchange of money to…

If you read the fine print there is, quite literally, no obligation at all. From the MIT license:

    THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR
    IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY,
    FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT.
You will find that most other FOSS licenses contain a similar clause.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#570

Post by LeoPanthera »

zamadatix wrote: post #364
kuschku wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you start buying a GPU that actually supports linux? If you buy a proprietary product with no actual linux support, then why are you complaining to the unpaid volunteer to fix it, and not the multi-billion dollar company you just made several hundred dollars richer?

Or just use KDE Wayland, they support it fine.

Does it? I run KDE on my desktop PC with has a GTX 1080 inside it, and whenever I experimentally turn on Wayland, I get a black screen. Been like that forever.
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