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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#541

Post by eigenrick »

As a Wayland (and Sway) user; Overall, I have loved the Wayland experience. I am very grateful to all of the devs who've worked to make this happen.

That said, I feel that Wayland devs (and users) are just now (re)learning the ecosystem catch-22 problem. The ecosystem hasn't caught up with Wayland's new architecture because the layers don't line up the same way. This means entirely new layers (or adapters) need to be created all the way up the stack.

Also, this new design and these interfaces are almost completely undocumented, so it makes it very hard for a non-waylander to step in and contribute. I made a couple attempts to fix bugs, but after wading through Github issues for 4 hours, and getting no help on IRC, I gave up.

Unfortunately the ecosystem is responsible for building the rest of the stack, but it's hard, because there isn't much in the way of documentation or examples in the ecosystem. That's the catch. The ecosystem is expanding very slowly because there isn't much of an ecosystem.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#542

Post by cycloptic »

innagadadavida wrote: post #449
pmlnr wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones). It really makes people angry when things don't work the same anymore, let alone when it doesn't even work anymore for their use case. Most of them are too frequent, automatic, plus they are not actual improvements.

> Most of them are too frequent, automatic, plus they are not actual improvements. It seems like the developers and product managers want to show progress but the uses just want you to fix boring bugs. It will help if the product folks think of memory, perf and stability as very important features and stop chasing new features for the sake of it.

I'm sure you know this, but memory perf and stability are secondary to supporting the hard business requirements. For low-cost products intended for mass consumption, a small feature that brings in millions of new users from a new audience is usually going to be more worth it to the business than optimizing for old hardware that doesn't bring in money anymore.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#543

Post by alisonkisk »

Spivak wrote: post #441
R0b0t1 wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because then you end up with something like X11, which we already have. The codebase could be re-engineered, sure, but a lot of people championing Wayland tend to see this duplication of effort as good for some reason, and at least last I engaged with them did not like the idea of a "new X11." Personally I think something like that is an inevitability.

Because the Xorg mono-culture was bad. There was no ability to write other X11 display servers from the spec alone. You either did what Xorg did bug for bug or apps broke. By having many different implementations all speaking a common protocol you make it harder to calcify the behaviors of any one implementation and ensure that the spec is what apps code against. People seem to like that we have many browser implemen…

I don't understand why it's so important to have multiple broken implementations before having 1 working implementation. Especially in open source where there's no monopoly risk.

Diversity is great but equality in failure is not helpful.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#544

Post by spion »

zamadatix wrote: post #523
spion wrote: post #497

No, Wayland is not currently usable for the "vast majority" of people. Anyone that has a high DPI display and/or NVIDIA card and uses most of the popular Electron based apps or Chrome will have a bad experience. Not saying Xorg is any good, or the scaling decisions in Wayland are bad. Just that its not objectively possible to switch away from it yet, for a large number of people See e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/sway…

This was a sway thing more than a Wayland thing and a PR for it was made back in March https://github.com/swaywm/wlroots/pull/2064 Edit: but not merged yet :/ Also it's (ironically) an X11 related issue which shows up do to XWayland backwards compatibility, not something new with Wayland. Chrome also since supports Wayland natively so the workaround in that PR isn't even needed for it anymore. Electron is still a bit…

From the user's perspective, if they get blurry Electron apps, they get blurry Electron apps. Its not a win if you don't get to use the win.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#545

Post by red_trumpet »

ceronman wrote: post #510

I'm writing this from my Fedora laptop where Wayland works extremely well. I want to say thank you to all the developers behind it! I know that the process of moving to Wayland has been slow and hard. It is definitely not an easy task. I know it's frustrating when something that used to work does not any more. I know the process is not complete and there are still a few things that might not work well. But for god sa…

> If you think that X is better, just use it, and live with its unfixable issues.

Out of curiosity: What are those issues with X? On my day to day use of Xubuntu I don't encounter any problems. What would I gain from switching to Wayland?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#547

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

Out_of_Characte wrote: post #350
SEJeff wrote: post #191

The author is kind of a jerk. He complains that users don't like wayland when he entirely and wholesale rejects anyone who wants to use an nvidia graphics card. Maintainers with attitudes like this are why we can't have nice things: https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html Sadly, the OSS driver doesn't support the 4k monitors I use for work well enough to actually use day to day. So my option is to use…

"rejects anyone who wants to use an nvidia graphics card." Yes this part is true. "my option is to use an "evil" but very stable driver and no wayland to do my job and get paid, or not." So what is the problem? That you can't have nice things for free?

As someone with an nvidia card, it rubs me the wrong way that he says “Nvidia users are shitty consumers and I don’t even want them in my userbase.”

If he wants someone like me to use wayland, that’s the problem. If he doesn’t want me to use it, then there’s no problem. But I think this guy isn’t just maintaining it. He’s evangelizing it too, right? Get rid of the old broken X11 and come to the promised land of wayland where we fixed x11’s woes. And if it doesn’t work for you:

> Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago.

He seems to be saying it works and you’re dumb if you think it doesn’t. And at the same time saying he won’t support maybe the most common cards out there.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#548

Post by vidarh »

lewispollard wrote: post #151
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

> I've been down this road a lot with FOSS software: "I don't use it because it doesn't do what I need", "sure it does!", "no, it really doesn't", "well you don't need that anyway!"... Just recently (I was on a Fedora box temporarily) I was trying to figure out how to get Nautilus to stop starting a search whenever I typed something, and instead highlight the nearest match in the current directory, y'know, like prett…

It gives them dictatorial power because it's their project.

I don't use Gnome because I don't like the direction they've taken it in. But they have absolutely every right to do with it as they please. And I have every right to insist it's totally not fit for my purposes and refuse to use it.

The same way I have no (current) interest in using Wayland because it'd be too much hassle to try to replicate my workflow with it. But they're free to ignore me the way I ignore them.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#549

Post by utborin »

foldr wrote: post #368
phkahler wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> To be honest I don’t see how you can understand the first bit but not the second. Yes, they can make changes that you don’t like without consulting you. People in charge of large FOSS projects like Gnome should not pretend it's just some hobby project they can do whatever they want with. Those projects are essentially public infrastructure and should be treated as such. It's not their personal plaything. Yes, peop…

>People in charge of large FOSS projects like Gnome should not pretend it's just some hobby project they can do whatever they want with. Those projects are essentially public infrastructure and should be treated as such. It's not their personal plaything. They're not pretending. I'm afraid you're laboring under a misconception. Nothing obliges the GNOME team to accede to the wishes of people who contribute nothing to…

I understand where this thinking comes from but I still think it's kind of a simplistic attitude. People depend on the technology they use. When you convince someone to rely on something you've produced (and, crucially, continue working on), I think you do actually create a duty to be responsive to them. They depend on your work. Are we really so limited in our ethical thinking that we require an exchange of money to create obligation?

I understand that people can be aggressive, rude, and downright hostile. I'm not suggesting that such behavior be rewarded. Nor am I suggesting that every open source project has to do everything any user says. I do, however, object to the notion that there is no obligation whatsoever between the producer of a technology and the users of that technology, regardless of whether money has changed hands.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#550

Post by Shared404 »

jeromenerf wrote: post #253
Shared404 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sway is literally "i3, but Wayland". It is a drop in replacement.

More like i3-gaps, and other capabilities, such as monitors , keyboard settings, idle/lock included.

You are correct of course, Sway does do a little more than i3 does.

That being said, you can still get the same experience as you are used to by dropping in your i3 config file. I'm not saying that you "Need to move! Using X still is evil!", I'm just saying dismissing Sway out of hand because it's "Not i3" isn't fair either.

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