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Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

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Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#641

Post by dragonwriter »

throwaway32871 wrote: post #599
adolph wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, but that complaint reads weirdly. Most often these things are deadly dull and the facts are slowly laid out with evidence in the footnotes but that filing doesn’t play to type. I make no claim if that is right or wrong, just oddly spicy.

I have read too many court documents over the last 10 years and I agree. Generally, you want to start out with your strongest statement. In this case, the strong argument is very easily legally defensible. It was very clear in context why Rudy was not pleading fraud because it wasn't the point he was making at that time. That's the strongest argument? So I wonder what exactly is the point of this lawsuit? I'm going t…

> When Rudy asks for discovery, it will either be provided or not. I suspect Dominion does not want to take it that far because any good lawyer can make a case for whatever they want given what discovery they get.

Discovery is a two-way street, and if “any good lawyer can make a case for whatever they want” with it, that gives Rudy as much motive to avoid discovery as Dominion.

In reality, facts matter, and even the best lawyer needs something to make a case out of (and even an unimpressive lawyer can make a case out of a smoking gun).

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#642

Post by CamperBob2 »

robscallsign wrote: post #567
ChuckMcM wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its been fun to watch. And really fun to watch the crazy news guys who had to lay out to their viewers they were lying to them in order to avoid more actions by Dominion.

Wait... whats this?

For example, https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2020/12/21/fox-new...

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#643

Post by bdowling »

dragonwriter wrote: post #505
briandear wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why no court seriously entertained them The courts didn’t “entertain” them because of standing. Cases weren’t thrown out on merits. No court has actually heard evidence.

> The courts didn’t “entertain” them because of standing. Cases weren’t thrown out on merits. No court has actually heard evidence. This is false on several levels. One, several cases went through trial to a verdict. Second, of those that did not, several were thrown out on grounds that while perhaps “procedural”, include as part of their standards review of the actual and proferred evidence in the light most favorab…

> When cases are, as many of the Trump & allied cases were, thrown out for this reason, the court is making a finding on the merits ...

That's not the way lawyers use the term "on the merits". See, e.g., [0].

[0] https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/on_the_merits

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#644

Post by jariel »

edgyquant wrote: post #598
jariel wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such an interesting point that it really throws the era of 'fake news' a judicial curveball. The same question came up with Trump's phone calls to the Georgia AG when the President was essentially threatening the AG to 'do something'. There is apparently a lot of materiality to the notion of how much the President actually believed the issue of fraud. Which is an altogether amazing new line of defence: "If yo…

I didn’t know it was a crime isn’t a proper legal defense

That's not the defence though. The defence is 'I legitimately believed the election was stolen in Georgia, therefore, pressuring state officials to investigate said issues' doesn't itself constitute a crime.

It's entirely plausible that people 'get things wrong' in the real world.

But once you have a guy who will believe everything that's to his benefit, and claim that everything not to his credit is a lie ... well then you have a problem.

It's really, really worrisome how many intelligent people do not see quite obviously the game he is playing.

It's one thing for people who watch Judge Judy every day to maybe have difficulty with a lie so forcefully presented, but most people should know better.

It's also interesting how it's viewed from outside the bubble of the US where the ration of 'believers' is vastly lower, and yet, at the same time there are even die-hard cohorts of them outside the border as well.

There was a 'Stop The Steal' min-march in Montreal Canada of all places.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#645

Post by daenz »

ahupp wrote: post #602
chrisco255 wrote: post #469

I think it's nuts for a modern democracy to allow for anything but open source software being used to count paper ballots with chain-of-custody records, voter ID validation, biometric markings, and redacted ballots being published on the web for all to view and count independently. Software systems can easily be hacked, and it isn't easy to inspect and tell. A vote is a one time, one sided transaction. It's not as ea…

Open source doesn't really help here, because even if I can see the source I don't have a way to verify what was running. It's more important to just not rely on software for the critical path, and make sure there's an auditable paper trail.

Verifying what software is actually running is orthogonal to having that software be open for the public to inspect. You can have closed source software and still have a problem verifying what is running.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#646

Post by wtfiswiththis »

kortilla wrote: post #594
andy_ppp wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are kidding me, their defence in court is that they are bullshit artists, it’s just beyond parody. I’m starting to think we live in something far worse than idiocracy... Dominion at the very least should be demanding they remove the word “news” from all their branding if this is to fly.

Nope. It’s very clear to even people who like that shit that Tucker isn’t “the news”. It’s very clearly overblown rants about anything that went on recently. It’s clearly a talk show on a channel that has news during the day. Hannity is even more of a nutter bringing in panels to get peoples’ reactions to shit that went on. It’s the equivalent of /r/politics for boomers. A bunch of people getting riled up together ab…

[dead]

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#647

Post by yters »

JshWright wrote: post #515
yters wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps what you say is correct, but I have no way to verify the vote records myself. All I can do is trust the vote counters, and at this point that is the very matter under dispute. Someone in the know really should do an in depth write-up of why it is we can trust this election result. As it is the third Peter Navarro report appears very suspicious and it is hard to believe there is absolutely no reason to doubt t…

This is very "conspiracy theory" type thinking you're engaging in... There is no evidence supporting any of the claims of fraud, any evidence that doesn't support your position is automatically dismissed as untrustworthy. Your claim seems to be that the Georgia Secretary of State (a staunch Republican and Trump supporter) along with the governor managed to pull off a huge operation to secretly change the results of t…

Isn't a stolen election precisely a conspiracy?

I would prefer not to believe the election was stolen. I wanted Trump out, and Biden seems a reasonable replacement. I also debunked a number of the fallacious statistical 'proofs' the election was stolen. Believe me I would like nothing better than to believe everything is fine. But especially Navarro's report makes me unable to dismiss the allegations off hand with a clean conscience. I've also looked into the PA court's reasons for dismissing Trump's lawsuit from back in Sept, and the reasoning is all based on technicalities and does not address the substance of the concern that the loosening of the rules has opened the door to major fraud. The fact all the coverage of the lawsuits is frivolous dismissal or even in some cases the courts rule in favor does nothing to set my mind at ease.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#648

Post by qwerty12345678 »

edgyquant wrote: post #639
qwerty12345678 wrote: post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you bring up technical backgrounds, how do you feel about the voting machines having logs erased for 2020 but not 2016? And would you be against analyzing all election machine logs related to server-activity/internet-usage/usb-activity/code-execution-activity/etc? If you really claim that they were bullshitting , why is everyone so afraid to release that data? And not question why it was deleted? Giuliani was j…

How about you show me a single credible source that backs up your claim the logs were deleted? Quit being dishonest, or worse spreading ignorance by accident.

Here's the forensic report from Allied Security Operations Group. Michigan politicians did everything in their power to keep this hidden, but a judge ultimately released it. This story was blackballed by MSM and censored on social media.

https://depernolaw.com/uploads/2/7/0/2/27029178/antrim_michi...

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#649

Post by yters »

JshWright wrote: post #496
yters wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are the specific votes public record? If not, it is impossible to verify votes were recorded correctly. But the addresses being public record is interesting. If that information is public record then it would be easy for citizens to randomly verify enough records to ascertain whether enough votes were dumped to make a difference. If what you say is correct then I can try verifying it myself. Why has no one publicly d…

No, the specifics of how people vote is not publicly available. That is important, in order to prevent voter coercion.

How exactly is the possibility of vote dumping and vote flipping eliminated?

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#650

Post by ashtonkem »

qwerty12345678 wrote: post #546
wcunning wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As to (3), Ken and others have also pointed out, Rudy or Sydney Powel being lawyers have a duty to know this sort of thing so there's a chance that they'll be found to have actual malice even without a finding that Rudy was knowingly lying.

Serious Question: Why is everyone assuming they're lying? And why doesn't anyone want to prove Biden won? From my perspective, the accusations he made were completely dodged by Dominion and by Democrats (since their guy was labeled the winner by the media). I'm not aware of any individual claim that was debunked via substantiating evidence. They refused to answer, refused to report it in the media, and ran full speed…

Burden of proof is on the accuser, and when the Trump side arrived in court over 60 times they didn’t bring any evidence. Occam’s razor says they don’t have any actual evidence, since if they did they would have brought it to court.
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