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Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

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Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#501

Post by javagram »

unanswered wrote: post #444
wlesieutre wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must have missed the part of the video where media and observers were barred from the room, rather than simply having left. Could you give me a timestamp? With the whole thing being on camera and knowing that no secret ballot suitcases were smuggled in, are we to believe that in the absence of observers they somehow rigged the counting machines to mis-scan these ballots, even though the hand recount for Fulton only…

The observers are not there to make sure the ballot scanners are working. They're there to audit the portion of the process which can never ever be re-audited: the provenance of secret ballots. Of course if you re-count the same ballots over again you'll come up with something roughly the same. This "hand recount had identical* results" mantra to reinforce the core idea "the election has been independently verified"…

> The observers are not there to make sure the ballot scanners are working. They're there to audit the portion of the process which can never ever be re-audited: the provenance of secret ballots

But the provenance is on camera. Those ballots were right there with the rest of them. What exactly is the “auditing” you think the observers would have done that the Republican secretary of state’s staffer didn’t do?

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#502

Post by david927 »

jansan wrote: post #417
david927 wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Argue the points, not the person.

I argue the concept. In my view using comedy to make fun of supposedly intellectually inferior people is despicable. We have a very similar show in Germany called "Tagesshow". Both are claiming a moral high ground while ridiculing political opponents.

I agree with you. This video doesn’t have any of that, though. Watch it and then let me know.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#504

Post by briandear »

jliptzin wrote: post #400
um_ya wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The court system moves slower than the news. Many of these lawsuits are still ongoing. Simply stating "they were discredited" doesn't make the evidence presented less true. If you look at what is presented, you'll find much of it is quite compelling.

Can’t possibly be the case that a President who never won the popular vote and never polled above 50% approval during his entire term lost an election in which almost every poll leading up to it predicted his loss.

False:

https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/497435-pol...

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#505

Post by dragonwriter »

briandear wrote: post #499
knowaveragejoe wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is the idea here that by putting assertions that were discredited and that failed in court cases heard by Republican and, in some cases, Trump-appointed judges in Airtable, they somehow gain credibility? Yes. This is airtable is used on a number of websites that claim to show Biden cheated. It's a form of gish galloping - look closer at any of these, there's a reason why no court seriously entertained them. But whe…

> why no court seriously entertained them The courts didn’t “entertain” them because of standing. Cases weren’t thrown out on merits. No court has actually heard evidence.

> The courts didn’t “entertain” them because of standing. Cases weren’t thrown out on merits. No court has actually heard evidence.

This is false on several levels. One, several cases went through trial to a verdict. Second, of those that did not, several were thrown out on grounds that while perhaps “procedural”, include as part of their standards review of the actual and proferred evidence in the light most favorable to the party to be ruled against.

For instance, where cases were dismissed for “failure to state a claim”, this was not usually a finding that the Trump (or allied) party failed to enumerate the legal elements of an offense, but that they failed at the step beyond that which is required, to enumerate specific more detailed facts that actually would satisfy each of those elements, and proffer evidence which would make a prima facie case for each required point. (That is, which would suffice to prove the case in the absence of any counterevidence from the other side.) When cases are, as many of the Trump & allied cases were, thrown out for this reason, the court is making a finding on the merits: it is finding that the party being ruled against would lose on the merits if the case went to trial, all the evidence the moving party has offered were accepted at face value, and the other party just chose not to present anything at all to counter it.

(Now, its true that in many cases the same lawsuits dismissed on this grounds were also dismissed on a other grounds – standing and laches, particularly – but it is misleading to say that the merits of the claims and the value of the evidence the plaintiff’s had was not considered.)

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#506

Post by yters »

JshWright wrote: post #462
yters wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems trivial to 'randomly' sample a select subset of the votes. And that does nothing to guard against vote dumps. Non existent voters cannot validate their votes. Do you know where the Dominion validation process is clearly documented so it is easy to see whether it is easily subverted? I will bet the answer is no, and the software and hardware are all trade secrets and impossible for voters to verify :D. Sounds li…

It is not "Dominion's" process, it is the local board of election's process. All Dominion supplies are fancy printers and optical scanners. The verification process in Georgia involved physically counting all of the paper ballots. The Dominion machines were totally uninvolved in the hand-recount (and, unsurprisingly, the hand-recount found that the original machine tally was extremely accurate) Again, I think it's pr…

Perhaps what you say is correct, but I have no way to verify the vote records myself. All I can do is trust the vote counters, and at this point that is the very matter under dispute. Someone in the know really should do an in depth write-up of why it is we can trust this election result. As it is the third Peter Navarro report appears very suspicious and it is hard to believe there is absolutely no reason to doubt the election results. On the contrary the election could very well have been the steal of the century.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#507

Post by tzs »

david927 wrote: post #296
rpiguyshy wrote: post #14

before donald trump was ever in office, i always believed that these voting machines are complete bullshit. our entire voting system is bullshit. and it would be easy to fix. these machines have been shown to be massively flawed and vulnerable to hacking/tinkering. again, this was my opinion before donald trump was elected.

Here's a John Oliver special from a year ago that will terrify you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svEuG_ekNT0

The Dominion machines address the issues from that video. In particular, the machine that the voter makes their choice on prints out a paper ballot marked with that choice, which the voter then turns in to be counted on a different machine.

The paper ballots can then be used for risk limiting hand audit afterwards to verify that the machine count was accurate, or in the case of a close race a full hand recount.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#508

Post by wvenable »

jamiesonbecker wrote: post #493
wvenable wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have flagged it already but "voting machines" is vaguely tech related and it's still here. It appears you only care what a sizable portion of HN wants up to a point as they are the one's upvoting and downvoting the comments.

> I'd have flagged it already but "voting machines" is vaguely tech related and it's still here. Agreed. > It appears you only care what a sizable portion of HN wants up to a point as they are the one's upvoting and downvoting the comments. Fair point, but in a flame war, HN runs a risk of having a one-sided discussion. Of course, some people believe that the losers in any particular forum should be silenced, because…

There's no value in a flame war, regardless of which side is the majority. Extremely heated subjects do not lead to positive results here or anywhere. The only way to win as a person is not to play the game despite the very strong temptation.

But to your point, if you can't convince someone of the value of your contribution then perhaps it just isn't valuable. Do you believe all opinions and expressions of those opinions are equally valuable and require equal advertisement?

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#509

Post by briandear »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #485
simonh wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the claims if significant vote fraud were thrown out by courts up and down the land, including the Supreme Court and yet still a huge mob of nutters stormed the Capitol. A mere court finding isn’t going to stop Dominion employees getting death threats. It needs to be clearly and forcefully demonstrated that knowingly and recklessly and maliciously lying to the public with the intention of causing harm to a compan…

> All the claims if significant vote fraud were thrown out by courts up and down the land, including the Supreme Court I don’t believe that is true. As far as I know, there weren’t really any claims of voter fraud from Trump’s legal team.

The claim is that voter laws were changed by Secretaries of State rather than the legislatures as is required by the constitution. Secretaries of State changing voter laws is unconstitutional. Read the constitution. It’s crystal clear. That happened. It’s a fact.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#510

Post by colejohnson66 »

Pxtl wrote: post #422
rwmj wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK has paper-only ballots and none of this stuff is a problem. (There are no "hanging chads" because ballots are marked by the voter with a pen or pencil on a piece of paper). The polls close at 10pm, the votes are counted overnight by volunteers, and the winner takes office the next morning. It always baffles me that the US system is so complicated.

The trick is that American ballots bombard their voters with dozens of questions and dozens of options. Judges, ballot initiatives, various functionaries, etc, which makes hand counted paper ballots impractical. In parliamentary systems, you elect people so they can vote on those matters for you.

> In parliamentary systems, you elect people so they can vote on those matters for you.

Same in America too. Hence, representative democracy. It’s why we have Congress: to vote for us. The problem is that the citizens feel left out in certain issues, so instead of replacing the politician, they make propositions a thing. Boom! Now you have 5+ more things to vote for. Add in county and local governments, and it gets to be 20+ things long.

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