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Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

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Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As to (3), Ken and others have also pointed out, Rudy or Sydney Powel being lawyers have a duty to know this sort of thing so there's a chance that they'll be found to have actual malice even without a finding that Rudy was knowingly lying.

Serious Question: Why is everyone assuming they're lying? And why doesn't anyone want to prove Biden won? From my perspective, the accusations he made were completely dodged by Dominion and by Democrats (since their guy was labeled the winner by the media). I'm not aware of any individual claim that was debunked via substantiating evidence. They refused to answer, refused to report it in the media, and ran full speed…

"And why doesn't anyone want to prove Biden won?"

There's an election process with many layers of oversight, that's the 'proof'.

Just because there are what might appear to be opaque elements to us plebes, doesn't mean there is any material lack of integrity.

Most tellingly: Giuliani himself did not argue fraud in court - because he could be disbarred for introducing garbage in that process.

If the Giuliani/Trump case had any material merit whatsoever (they had umpteen people willing to provide them their 'evidence') obviously, they would have tried the courts 'for real' which they mostly did not.

They did go after things like State Congressional rights to alter voting days, to expand mail-in voting due to COVID, but that in and of itself doesn't really constitute fraud. Every state has mail-in procedures already in place.

Finally - anything that was really problematic would have been made public - as they did with a couple of videos in which they maligned workers essentially doing their jobs.

As far as Dominion - there is a paper trail for auditing, there have been hand-counts and the tallies match, i.e. no fraud at the ballot validation level.

Dominion is probably one of the more secure elements in the process.

The most 'grey and ambiguous' area of voting boils down to voter rolls. If you look at Georgia legal battles, you see they fight over the policies for purging the rolls. 'If so and so has not returned their mail-in card in over 2 years, they purge' etc..

In 2000, the vote was extremely close in Florida, and it may very well have come down to the degree to which certain groups were purged.

That said - this doesn't leave a lot of opportunity for systematic fraud. Someone grabbing someone else's ballot from the mailbox, forging their signature is well within likely to happen, and surely does happen, but it can't feasibly be scaled. The voter rolls themselves are monitored, it's not like they are a black box either.

It's important to remember that the initiative was populist. It was not to convince the courts or anyone of integrity that there was fraud, because we already knew the answer. The issue was entirely a campaign of public misinformation to discredit an opponent, to sow distrust in the system.

By far the worst 'crime' in all of this is someone using the legitimate authority of the Office of President of the USA to knowingly spread false information. Or at least a close second to pressuring election officials, state officials, the VP, and senators to interfere directly with the process.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a link to anything that has been established as true in court? Because that link is pants-on-fire lying: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/dec/04/russell-ja...

oh, cabal fact checkers seem to say this link is garbage (do they though?). i will flog myself and pledge allegiance to the cabal to repent.

We've banned this account for ideological flamewar. Not what this site is for.

Please don't create accounts to break HN's guidelines with—it will eventually get your main account banned as well.

In case anyone's worried about it, yes, we ban accounts for this regardless of which ideology they're flaming for. It's an existential issue for HN; we'd rather not burn to a crisp, regardless of the color of the flames.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think their argument was particularly strong, and even if it was, disenfranchising 6 million voters who voted in good faith per their individual US Constitutional right would never be a sensical remedy for an error in procedure by officials.

> I don’t think their argument was particularly strong The lower court seemed to indicate they were going to win on it before it was dismissed on procedure. > disenfranchising 6 million voters who voted in good faith per their individual US Constitutional right would never be a sensical remedy for an error in procedure by officials. The problem is that once the election has been conducted in violation of the law, tha…

The Pennylvania case wasn't dismissed solely on procedure; it was dismissed on lack of merit. The claim that Trump's team made was that because some counties allowed voters to "cure" mail-in ballots if they were going to be thrown out and some didn't, that was unlawful. Multiple courts up the chain kept saying "no, this is not actually a thing." The Third Circuit's 3-0 ruling against them said, in these words, "The Campaign cannot win this lawsuit" because they "had to plead plausible facts, not just conclusory allegations". They went on to note that the number of mail-in ballots actually affected by the claims were "far smaller" than Biden's margin of victory.

> The problem is that once the election has been conducted in violation of the law, that has already happened. The total you have is inaccurate and you don't actually know who won.

If votes are cast in good faith by citizens following the voting laws as they are communicated and there is no evidence either of material fraud or of a material number of voters being disenfranchised, then you very likely do have an accurate total, right? If the election is a violation of the law because it disenfranchised enough voters to make a material difference in the outcome, that would be a different matter, but that was never actually in question here. Even if all the mail-in votes that had been "cured" had been thrown out, Biden would have still won the state. This is why Trump's team asked to have all mail-in votes thrown out: a more reasonable restitution wouldn't have achieved the outcome they wanted, e.g., Trump being awarded the state's electoral college votes regardless of the popular vote tally.

(And, AnimalMuppet is also right: every state that changed election laws in 2020 changed them, by definition, before the election. Raising objections to those laws after the election because your guy didn't win -- and only in those states -- is, well, suspect.)

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laches isn't a "punt". Laches is, the courts don't like being used as a machine for your lawsuit to hold the public hostage. You don't get to see grounds for suing, do nothing, then once the results of the lawsuit will do maximum damage to the public, then sue. The courts are not interested in letting you use them for, essentially, blackmail. If you knew months before the election that the rules were being changed, w…

I used the wrong word, but it remains that the judges didn't normally rule on the actual arguments of the case, which were ridiculous in their own right.

They were not ridiculous.

Have you heard of Antrim County? Everybody on the right heard of it on November 5th. https://www.westernjournal.com/michigan-recount-confirms-tru...

This is "fact checked" by many left leaning websites to indicate it is false. But even the "fact checkers" admit that Trump actually won Antrim county. Their "fact check" ridicules that the 2nd recount, after the reversing of the dominion glitch that gave 3000 Trump votes to Biden, only netted Trump a few more votes after that. But the way the "fact check" articles are presented make the reader believe the whole thing is bullshit. It's not. https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/1...

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see no reason to provide additional support for threads with limited value to the HN community. If you want to discuss politics or general news there are plenty of sites for that.

Agree such threads presently have limited value, hence suggestions granting readers greater dominion over them. Sans, excessive polarisation remains a risk for any topic.

Is excessive polarization an actual problem here? It doesn't seem that way to me. It seems mostly there are butt-hurt people who don't like that their opinions are unpopular, unhelpful, or illogical while everyone else (on whatever side of the issue) is happily commenting.

The only times I've ever been downvoted excessively, I've deserved it.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#566

Ken White has been talking about the potential for this suit for a couple weeks now. He spends a lot of time talking about what isn't defamation --- people use defamation suits and threats thereof to chill free speech, and he's a 1st Amendment guy --- but the Dominion cases are apparently examples of very serious defamation cases. The core of defamation is (1) a false statement of purported fact that (2) causes damag…

> The problem is that it's not totally clear whether Giuliani believed any of his crazy-talk. It may actually be the case that Giuliani is just off his rocker. If he himself was sold by the (false) facts he received from others, he is a more difficult defamation target. That part seems bizarre. Surely he ought to still be culpable is he said false things with the intention to damage Dominion, even if he can convince…

This is such an interesting point that it really throws the era of 'fake news' a judicial curveball.

The same question came up with Trump's phone calls to the Georgia AG when the President was essentially threatening the AG to 'do something'. There is apparently a lot of materiality to the notion of how much the President actually believed the issue of fraud.

Which is an altogether amazing new line of defence: "If you believe the lie thoroughly, you're literally less culpable!"

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#567

Ken White has been talking about the potential for this suit for a couple weeks now. He spends a lot of time talking about what isn't defamation --- people use defamation suits and threats thereof to chill free speech, and he's a 1st Amendment guy --- but the Dominion cases are apparently examples of very serious defamation cases. The core of defamation is (1) a false statement of purported fact that (2) causes damag…

Its been fun to watch. And really fun to watch the crazy news guys who had to lay out to their viewers they were lying to them in order to avoid more actions by Dominion.

Wait... whats this?

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#568

I think it's nuts for a modern democracy to allow for anything but open source software being used to count paper ballots with chain-of-custody records, voter ID validation, biometric markings, and redacted ballots being published on the web for all to view and count independently. Software systems can easily be hacked, and it isn't easy to inspect and tell. A vote is a one time, one sided transaction. It's not as ea…

There is little if any actual evidence of voter fraud, but plenty of evidence that making voting harder (via voter ID validation, biometric markings, etc) simply disenfranchises voters.

It's easy to say that software can just be hacked, but just because its a possibility doesn't give you the right to invalidate an election.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, there is a sense in which dismissal for “failure to state a claim” (which is very common for the Trump cases, often alongside other grounds like laches and/or lack of standing) is “procedural”, but it definitely and unequivocally amounts to a finding on the merits, since it is literally “does the plaintiff allege the actual elements of an offense, with specific alleged factual bases, and profer evidence which w…

There was a bit of a catch-22 in many of these. There was statistical and/or witness evidence that looking more closely at dominion machines and/or ballots was warranted. However, the only way to actually be allowed to look was during discovery ... which required a suit to actually be heard rather than dismissed. So you don't get to go looking for evidence because you are told you don't have any evidence. I remember…

And what was the statistical evidence?

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that it's not totally clear whether Giuliani believed any of his crazy-talk. It may actually be the case that Giuliani is just off his rocker. If he himself was sold by the (false) facts he received from others, he is a more difficult defamation target. In a court case in Antrim county Michigan a judge allowed an audit, which showed voting machine fraud. You can read the report here: https://assets.d…

Paper ballots were kept in the Antrim County election, and a review supported the declared results: https://www.factcheck.org/2020/12/audit-in-michigan-county-r... Whatever the problems experienced in the initial tabulation because of a mismatch between client and server software revisions, it is very difficult to falsify paper ballots especially under so much recount scrutiny.

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