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Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

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Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#491

Post by yters »

javagram wrote: post #466
yters wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems trivial to 'randomly' sample a select subset of the votes. And that does nothing to guard against vote dumps. Non existent voters cannot validate their votes. Do you know where the Dominion validation process is clearly documented so it is easy to see whether it is easily subverted? I will bet the answer is no, and the software and hardware are all trade secrets and impossible for voters to verify :D. Sounds li…

> Seems trivial to 'randomly' sample a select subset of the votes. And that does nothing to guard against vote dumps. Non existent voters cannot validate their votes. Incorrect. Voter rolls have information about who voted, and this information is public record. You can simply call up a random sample of recorded 2020 voters in Georgia and ask them to confirm that they voted in the election. There is no way to undetec…

Are the specific votes public record? If not, it is impossible to verify votes were recorded correctly. But the addresses being public record is interesting. If that information is public record then it would be easy for citizens to randomly verify enough records to ascertain whether enough votes were dumped to make a difference. If what you say is correct then I can try verifying it myself. Why has no one publicly done this? Would be an easy way to put the matter to rest.

UPDATE: I just checked the GA website, and all it gives me is voter IDs and whom they voted for. No way I can verify vote fraud did not occur from that information. No addresses or names.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#492

Post by javagram »

starik36 wrote: post #470
MisterBastahrd wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also quite interesting that Democrats have tried multiple times in the past two Congresses to provide for election security laws, with mandatory paper ballots AND standard auditing, and yet Republicans refused to bring any of those bills to the floor in the Senate.

The situation will be reversed for the next 2 years. Just watch.

Democrats have already introduced a new election integrity bill providing funds for secure voting. https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/1/te... - Look for “Subtitle F—Promoting Accuracy, Integrity, And Security Through Voter-Verified Permanent Paper Ballot”

Biden got 7 million more votes than Trump in 2020. Democrats are perfectly happy to spend even more money to “prove” their wins are real (although it’s actually mostly solid Republican states that use insecure voting machines that don’t have a paper trail and should be forced to upgrade).

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#493

Post by jamiesonbecker »

wvenable wrote: post #483
jamiesonbecker wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this entire posting is literally a discussion of politics/general news. The tone of "I see no reason.. limited value" seems a bit condescending to what appears to be a sizable portion of HN that values intelligent debate, and there can be no debate with only one viewpoint.

I'd have flagged it already but "voting machines" is vaguely tech related and it's still here. It appears you only care what a sizable portion of HN wants up to a point as they are the one's upvoting and downvoting the comments.

> I'd have flagged it already but "voting machines" is vaguely tech related and it's still here.

Agreed.

> It appears you only care what a sizable portion of HN wants up to a point as they are the one's upvoting and downvoting the comments.

Fair point, but in a flame war, HN runs a risk of having a one-sided discussion. Of course, some people believe that the losers in any particular forum should be silenced, because the majority view must be correct.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#494

Post by lawnchair_larry »

Pxtl wrote: post #439
lettergram wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

~None~ Many were not discussed on merits. See link: http://wiseenergy.org/Energy/Election/2020_Election_Cases.ht... Many are still active (~30) Edit: correction

googles wiseenergy . Oh look it's the successor to WindpowerFacts.info, run by a climate change denier. I'm so ready to trust his opinion on legal matters.

You think those are fake links to stanford law on his site? The sources are of equal validity regardless of the messenger.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#495

Post by AnthonyMouse »

antiterra wrote: post #421
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know he only said that in the Pennsylvania case, because they had quite a strong argument there that the rules changes made in Pennsylvania violated their state constitution, and then given limited time/resources they went with the argument there that was easier to prove. But that was one of the cases dismissed over procedure. The courts essentially said they should have complained about it before the ele…

I don’t think their argument was particularly strong, and even if it was, disenfranchising 6 million voters who voted in good faith per their individual US Constitutional right would never be a sensical remedy for an error in procedure by officials.

> I don’t think their argument was particularly strong

The lower court seemed to indicate they were going to win on it before it was dismissed on procedure.

> disenfranchising 6 million voters who voted in good faith per their individual US Constitutional right would never be a sensical remedy for an error in procedure by officials.

The problem is that once the election has been conducted in violation of the law, that has already happened. The total you have is inaccurate and you don't actually know who won, so choosing anyone based on it is disenfranchising anybody who voted for someone else.

Now, I think at one point they were asking to just throw out all of the mail in ballots, which is ridiculous. Some kind of sensible remedy might have been to hold the election again or have the state legislature decide. But then when they started asking for that, people were calling it a coup attempt, as if voting for electors who then vote for President is perfectly democratic and reasonable, but voting for legislators who vote for electors who vote for President according to the constitutional procedure is some kind of seditious tyranny.

And what's the alternative? State officials can violate election procedures with impunity because there is no remedy? Surely you can see how that could be abused for partisan advantage by whoever is in control of the state government.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#496

Post by JshWright »

yters wrote: post #491
javagram wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems trivial to 'randomly' sample a select subset of the votes. And that does nothing to guard against vote dumps. Non existent voters cannot validate their votes. Incorrect. Voter rolls have information about who voted, and this information is public record. You can simply call up a random sample of recorded 2020 voters in Georgia and ask them to confirm that they voted in the election. There is no way to undetec…

Are the specific votes public record? If not, it is impossible to verify votes were recorded correctly. But the addresses being public record is interesting. If that information is public record then it would be easy for citizens to randomly verify enough records to ascertain whether enough votes were dumped to make a difference. If what you say is correct then I can try verifying it myself. Why has no one publicly d…

No, the specifics of how people vote is not publicly available. That is important, in order to prevent voter coercion.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#497

Post by tzs »

worldsayshi wrote: post #210
pwinnski wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voting machines without a paper trail have been deemed unreliable, and still should be deemed unreliable. These machines are used to generate an authoritative paper ballot, which is exactly what critics have demanded. A prevailing opinion about apples doesn't apply to oranges.

I don't see the point of a voting machine with a paper trail. You get preliminary statistics a bit faster and you get people used to the idea of voting machines.

You also get final results much faster in most cases.

Suppose candidate X beats candidate Y by 20% according to the machine count. You can then pull a randomly selected subset of the paper ballots and count them. You only need to pick a fairly small subset to establish that the 20% machine count is accurate to within a margin of error much smaller than 20%.

This is called a risk-limiting audit.

If X beats Y by 10% according to the machine count, you need to include more paper ballots in your risk0limiting audit.

In general, the closer X and Y are, the more paper ballots need to be in your audit.

If it is close enough, like it was in Georgia, the risk limiting-audit turns into a full hand recount of all the paper ballots.

Most elections, though, aren't that close, and you only need to hand count a relatively small random sample of paper ballots to with very high probability verify that the correct candidate was declared the winner.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#498

Post by javagram »

HNfriend234 wrote: post #288
seanalltogether wrote: post #43

I remember a lot of accusation about Diebold voting back in the 2000s, and concerns about lack of auditability. My understanding is that newer systems now let you vote at a machine, but it spits out a receipt that the voter can verify and the county can hold on to for the sake of audits and recounts. Is this standard now, or on a state by state basis?

Yup. I think there is room for a lot more transparency and "double-checks" so to speaks built into voting going forward. Allow each voter to audit their own vote. We have the technology to allow for this to happen so there really is no excuse. This is really how you build confidence is the voting system. Anyone who is truly skeptical can cast their own vote and double-check it though the system. I know quite a few pe…

> I know quite a few people that fully believe that voting is effectively a sham now.

Unfortunately this is because they want to believe lies. If they did a small amount of Googling or simply watched a mainstream news source, they’d find that Pennsylvania, Georgia, Arizona, Wisconsin, and Michigan all used auditable paper ballots or receipts.

7/8 states that use unverifiable electronic voting machines that don’t have a paper trail went for Trump (e.g. Louisiana). The other is New Jersey, which wasn’t even accused of fraud by Giuliani or Trump.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#499

Post by briandear »

knowaveragejoe wrote: post #394
tptacek wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the idea here that by putting assertions that were discredited and that failed in court cases heard by Republican and, in some cases, Trump-appointed judges in Airtable, they somehow gain credibility? I think the funniest part of this is that there are columns here that contain "[number] [sentence]" formats, as if the person who built it doesn't quite get the idea of a spreadsheet.

> Is the idea here that by putting assertions that were discredited and that failed in court cases heard by Republican and, in some cases, Trump-appointed judges in Airtable, they somehow gain credibility? Yes. This is airtable is used on a number of websites that claim to show Biden cheated. It's a form of gish galloping - look closer at any of these, there's a reason why no court seriously entertained them. But whe…

> why no court seriously entertained them

The courts didn’t “entertain” them because of standing. Cases weren’t thrown out on merits. No court has actually heard evidence.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#500

Post by MisterBastahrd »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #484
MisterBastahrd wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The counterargument has been heard. There are only so many times you can audit an election before you give up because the facts are not the point: there are plenty of people in the US who saw Trump as a savior because he's a mean spirited asshole who is afraid of a majority-minority country, and so they cannot comprehend how someone who was so popular to so many would have lost an election by such a large margin. The…

Laches isn't a "punt". Laches is, the courts don't like being used as a machine for your lawsuit to hold the public hostage. You don't get to see grounds for suing, do nothing, then once the results of the lawsuit will do maximum damage to the public, then sue. The courts are not interested in letting you use them for, essentially, blackmail. If you knew months before the election that the rules were being changed, w…

I used the wrong word, but it remains that the judges didn't normally rule on the actual arguments of the case, which were ridiculous in their own right.
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