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Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

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Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#421

Post by antiterra »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #377
rtkwe wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still super relevant to note that whereever they were in court Rudy et al were very careful to say we're not alleging or prosecuting fraud here because they could be hit with perjury for lying to the court. When not under the treat of perjury is when the election was a fraud.

As far as I know he only said that in the Pennsylvania case, because they had quite a strong argument there that the rules changes made in Pennsylvania violated their state constitution, and then given limited time/resources they went with the argument there that was easier to prove. But that was one of the cases dismissed over procedure. The courts essentially said they should have complained about it before the ele…

I don’t think their argument was particularly strong, and even if it was, disenfranchising 6 million voters who voted in good faith per their individual US Constitutional right would never be a sensical remedy for an error in procedure by officials.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#422

Post by Pxtl »

rwmj wrote: post #317
ChrisLomont wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Conversely, hand filled out ballots are a mess, often illegible, the hanging chad fiasco, etc. With electronic voting, the voter can (should?) see on a screen exactly what they did, and the machine can make multiple exact copies in electronic and paper formats of that exact result. There is far less ambiguity in the physical record once this has been done.

The UK has paper-only ballots and none of this stuff is a problem. (There are no "hanging chads" because ballots are marked by the voter with a pen or pencil on a piece of paper). The polls close at 10pm, the votes are counted overnight by volunteers, and the winner takes office the next morning. It always baffles me that the US system is so complicated.

The trick is that American ballots bombard their voters with dozens of questions and dozens of options. Judges, ballot initiatives, various functionaries, etc, which makes hand counted paper ballots impractical.

In parliamentary systems, you elect people so they can vote on those matters for you.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#423

Post by lettergram »

Pxtl wrote: post #409
lettergram wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been audits showing inconsistencies in the dominion systems in Michigan. https://beta.documentcloud.org/documents/20423772-antrim-cou... In addition they have videos of dominion employees supposedly explaining how to flip votes. https://thespectator.info/2021/01/04/new-video-shows-dominio... If you watched the state senate hearings you can see these. Witnesses share their findings. As far as I’m aware Giul…

A plethora of court cases disagree with you.

~None~ Many were not discussed on merits.

See link: http://wiseenergy.org/Energy/Election/2020_Election_Cases.ht...

Many are still active (~30)

Edit: correction

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#424

Post by jancsika »

guilhas wrote: post #392
sdenton4 wrote: post #280

Seeing lots of throw-away accounts popping in to drop misinformation... At least five, by my quick count? Seems like it would be helpful to disable commenting for new-user/low-karma accounts for certain threads.

Opposing political views are badly taken on HN, so many people might create extra accounts to comment political posts? There is enough affidavits, and statistical anomalies to warrant an investigation. And until there is one, anyone is free to claim voter fraud. But nonetheless all comments claiming fraud to be tangentially possible are getting destroyed. Even though the media has been bragging how easy is to hack a…

It looks to me like you've created a dichotomy between pre- and post-(hypothetical)-investigation discourse. From that dichotomy you then claim by fiat that no statements or allegations pre-investigation can be reasonably labeled as misinformation.

That certainly doesn't follow, and neither does the flipped implication that it wouldn't be reasonable for someone to make a good faith claim of voter fraud after such an investigation.

I'm not sure what to call this type of fallacy-- perhaps "phantom goal posts?"

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#425

Post by Merman_Mike »

unanswered wrote: post #284
dukeofdoom wrote: post #240

Rudy has a YouTube channel, you can hear him make his allegations and judge if it amounts to defamation. Most of them seem to be carefully phrased. https://www.youtube.com/c/RudyWGiuliani/videos Of all the claims that stuck out to me is the suitcase video, since it time corresponds with a one sided spike of votes.

I wish someone would honestly respond to the suitcase video, but I haven't seen any attempted defense of it yet. I would really prefer not to believe Giuliani, and yet that video is pretty damn hard to get around. None of it matters, of course, because realpolitik, and the biggest sin of the viking cosplayers was believing that any of this evidence matters.

I'm almost certain that you're concern trolling in this thread.

However, if anyone else is actually interested in an explanation of this incident from the people in charge of the election, check out this 60 Minutes clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjKXvqSNIkk

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#426

Post by MisterBastahrd »

whatshisface wrote: post #337
tptacek wrote: post #134

Ken White has been talking about the potential for this suit for a couple weeks now. He spends a lot of time talking about what isn't defamation --- people use defamation suits and threats thereof to chill free speech, and he's a 1st Amendment guy --- but the Dominion cases are apparently examples of very serious defamation cases. The core of defamation is (1) a false statement of purported fact that (2) causes damag…

> If he himself was sold by the (false) facts he received from others, he is a more difficult defamation target. A skilled liar would never for a moment reveal that they did not truly believe what they were saying, not even in private correspondence. Even in typical, not overtly evil companies, the saying "write for the subpoena" is passed around as advice for would-be upfront communicators. Still, if criminals never…

Giuliani made absolutely sure that courts understood that he was NOT alleging fraud in the lawsuits he filed and took part in because he was afraid that he would be sanctioned or disbarred for such actions.

Powell and Wood relied on donations for their work and Wood in particular is a multi-millionaire many times over for some of the corporate work he's done. I'm sure Rudy is rich, mostly from the speech circuit post 9/11, but he's not Lin Wood rich. He probably needs to work to maintain his lifestyle.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#427

Post by knowaveragejoe »

gamblor956 wrote: post #222
throwaway10923 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A staggering number of votes required adjudication.This was a 2020 issue not seen in previous election cycles stillstored on the server.This is caused by intentional errors in the system. The intentional errors lead to bulk adjudication of ballots withno oversight, no transparency or audit trail. Our examination of the server logs indicates that this high error rate was incongruent with patterns from previous years.…

Yes, all made up. First paragraph: simply made up by Ramsland, by basically treating all the times a ballot was entered incorrectly (such as upside down) as a vote requiring adjudication. Second paragraph: False. The person in charge of updating the system...was a Republican. Also, the voting machines were in compliance with federal voting system standards. The machine that was not updated prior to the election was t…

The mention of the "cabal" over and over by the person you're responding to indicates they're fairly deep into the QAnon delusion.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#428

Post by Merman_Mike »

rglover wrote: post #315
unanswered wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish someone would honestly respond to the suitcase video, but I haven't seen any attempted defense of it yet. I would really prefer not to believe Giuliani, and yet that video is pretty damn hard to get around. None of it matters, of course, because realpolitik, and the biggest sin of the viking cosplayers was believing that any of this evidence matters.

Give him a call: https://twitter.com/rglover/status/1339311748726349824 Ralph was in charge at State Farm Arena when those videos were filmed. Edit: yes, I called him and we spoke back in December for about 30-45 minutes. I originally called about the barriers blocking observers during the recount and then asked about the suitcases as well.

Are you referencing the barriers that were filmed... from inside the room... by the dozens of national media crews and party observers? Those barriers?

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#429

Post by Pxtl »

bonestamp2 wrote: post #256
LaMarseillaise wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, I think the numerous tangential and unsubstantiated comments in this very thread suggest that the strategy has been highly successful. While I imagine Dominion could win against Giuliani, he is only one person and this disinformation has been spread through many channels. I expect we will see it again. Edit: grammar.

One of the things that makes this more complex is that we should be skeptical of any person, company or machine that handles election data and has the power to make any significant change to that data. So, I think the dissenters at least got the skepticism part right. The problem, of course, is that a healthy level of skepticism should only inform the investigation of facts, and then perhaps new legislation and overs…

We should be even more skeptical of people who stand to benefit at distrust of the election outcome.

So many "skeptics" are actually incredibly trusting patsies, they're just trusting con-men instead of mainstream discourse.

Re: Dominion Voting Systems Sues Rudy Giuliani

#430

Post by knowaveragejoe »

dayofthedaleks wrote: post #407
asabjorn wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem is that it's not totally clear whether Giuliani believed any of his crazy-talk. It may actually be the case that Giuliani is just off his rocker. If he himself was sold by the (false) facts he received from others, he is a more difficult defamation target. In a court case in Antrim county Michigan a judge allowed an audit, which showed voting machine fraud. You can read the report here: https://assets.d…

Paper ballots were kept in the Antrim County election, and a review supported the declared results: https://www.factcheck.org/2020/12/audit-in-michigan-county-r... Whatever the problems experienced in the initial tabulation because of a mismatch between client and server software revisions, it is very difficult to falsify paper ballots especially under so much recount scrutiny.

This particular "audit" of voting machines in Michigan has been discussed, and thoroughly discredited, elsewhere in this thread:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25905263

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