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Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

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Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much more mental gymnastics do we need? I think it's time to accept that he WASN'T jailed rather than trying to forcefully shoehorn the facts into a 'but China still bad' narrative. The HN commentary went from 'Jack Ma is a national security threat' to 'Jack Ma is a poor victim of the CCP will will never be seen again' to 'this is fake, he is still jailed'. If he shows up someone else in person next time, will pe…

So... where's multi-billionaire Xiao Jianhua? After being abducted from the Four Seasons in Hong Kong by the CCP, he popped up to explain he was seeking medical treatment on the mainland (haha) three years ago , and nobody's heard from him since. Also laying low? Or do you think he's discovered a new love of mining rare earth minerals in Xinjiang? C'mon now, this isn't exactly some big exoneration one way or the othe…

Also Gui Minhai, Chen Qiushi, the 12 HK residents, countless protestors...surely China has a tolerant government according to this guy.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#112
post #27
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>easy path to citizenship in the West Since when the U.S. providing free citizenships to the countries in need of help?

Not saying I agree with parent, but: i) "The west" is much bigger than the US ii) Right of political asylum has been "a thing" for a long while, specially for people fleeing authoritarian regimes.

A) Its not really a US problem, its a UK one.

B) The US isn't exactly a hot ticket item at the moment. How many armed riots y'all had this year?

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#113

> In the 50-second video, Ma, dressed in a navy pullover, spoke directly to the camera from a room with grey marble walls and a striped carpet. It was not clear from the video or the Tianmu News article where he was speaking from. Uh, resurfacing from a fancy prison cell, perhaps? Can anyone find the video? EDIT: Here's the raw video: https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/13517514568277196... . If you watch his…

How much more mental gymnastics do we need? I think it's time to accept that he WASN'T jailed rather than trying to forcefully shoehorn the facts into a 'but China still bad' narrative. The HN commentary went from 'Jack Ma is a national security threat' to 'Jack Ma is a poor victim of the CCP will will never be seen again' to 'this is fake, he is still jailed'. If he shows up someone else in person next time, will pe…

I'm not sure if, or how, one should engage with an apologist for a tiranical, genocidal, dictatorial regime.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#114
post #82
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, a HN member with a profile created in December of 2008, 5800+ Karma, with links to his Twitter and name of his employer in his profile page is a 五毛(50 center). The CCP is truly all powerful! If my dripping sarcasm wasn’t clear, you’re way off base here. Edit 1: to the downvoters, please feel free to explain why it’s appropriate to accuse a 12-year HN member of being a paid shill for the CCP when all evidence poi…

The one you're replying to sounds like sarcasm to me. Or a very ironic comment given the comment it's replying to. It's hard to tell.

I might’ve thought so too, but the account I’m replying to seems to be a genuine CCP critic (which is totally fine!).

A post about Putin and the CCP exploiting US domestic political turmoil: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25830075

A book recommendation by a longtime China-skeptical writer: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843422 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gertz)

My personal preference is for a HN community where dissenting views don’t lead to assigning ulterior motives (in this case being paid to shill for the CCP) to our debating “opponents”.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect it seems all of your tweets center around defending the Chinese government. Why??? I mean, saying that: > Many people see the Chinese govt's deficiencies as a result of "evil". I don't really subscribe to that. I think it has more to do with "incompetence". Building a large organization, with the right culture, is hard . is kind of ridiculous. Would you say the same thing about the Soviets (with…

Of course it's ridiculous if you only know China through the media. But have you considered that maybe the media representation is inaccurate? I've actually lived there, my wife comes from there, and my family is still there. This is combined with new information about China coming from the west, and having no restrictions here. I've studied some of China's recent history, a subject which is rarely taught in the west…

I find your comments interesting because I've lived in Amsterdam for a significant period of time (as well as Switzerland, Germany, and Denmark), and I've intersected with a lot of people who probably have very similar life stories to you! I think the crowd I interact with is probably somewhat different though, because they're mostly crypto/blockchain people.

While I have encountered a fair number of expats who moved to China and regularly visit NL/DE/CH, and rave about how good things are in China, I've also heard the opposite from Chinese friends who moved away.

The issue is very complex, and I don't disagree that China is full of promise. I really would like China to succeed, and I think that co-operation is necessary to fix a lot of the problems that threaten us on a planetary and social scale (climate change, immigration, economics, etc.).

However, I have a very strong distaste for the CCP and really would like to see them dismantled. For this reason, I doubt I will ever visit China, simply because I've been very publicly vocal in this position.

I'd be interested to hear more from you — I think civil discourse is very important. But I also don't have much tolerance for gaslighting, and sadly many pro-China/CCP actors have gotten very good at that.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#116

> In the 50-second video, Ma, dressed in a navy pullover, spoke directly to the camera from a room with grey marble walls and a striped carpet. It was not clear from the video or the Tianmu News article where he was speaking from. Uh, resurfacing from a fancy prison cell, perhaps? Can anyone find the video? EDIT: Here's the raw video: https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/13517514568277196... . If you watch his…

Thanks for digging up that video.

Telling that the Global Times (CPC-affiliated media) refers to him as the "former executive chairman of #Alibaba", and that he's making the video from some "rural teacher-themed social welfare event".

This isn't what normally happens to billionaire corporate executives, unless they've been convicted of violating the law.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but he was comparing to how Bezos and Musk appear. Everyone is not how they normally appear because of the pandemic, and Ma addresses the reason why he's just video taping himself in a room because of this. Stop armchair speculating.

The odd outbreak aside (and Shijiazhuang is nowhere near Hangzhou), lockdowns are long over in China, there's no need for Ma to cower in a basement. That said, I actually agree with you that the "hurr durr CCP torture cell" comments are overblown. It's entirely plausible that he's keeping a low profile for a while, if likely in response to some rather heavy-handed advice.

My problem is the OP is trying to insinuate things based off pure speculation, cultural bias, and irrelevant details. He may as well have said that there was an excess of red pixels in the video and that means it must be reflections off of communist symbolism in the room.

So yes we are in agreement that the OP's comment is adds no substance to the conversation and is pure "hurr durr CCP torture cell" that just furthers the stereotypes of China.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#118
post #105

In the last Hacker News thread, people were so sure that the government jailed him for criticizing the party. Even though there was no evidence of such, people just assumed it MUST be true because the CCP MUST be evil. And before Jack Ma "disappeared", people were worried about Jack Ma and Ant Group being a national security threat, because of his ties with CCP. Because "CCP evil". No matter the facts, people just co…

Pray tell me, what is the benign reason for all the territorial aggression that China is showing? Is the West supposed to ignore all that and the 'whole world will win'? https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/not-just-india-s-g...

Please do not take HN threads further into nationalistic flamewar. We don't want that here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#119
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How much more mental gymnastics do we need? > I am from China and I have family in China. Would you publicly curse Xi and denounce the CCP? Please realize also that many in the West (myself included) are freaking out about China and are trying to counter its rise. This is a narrative that fits into their world view. I'm more worried about CCP fascism and hypersonic nukes than I am about climate change. I'm worried…

>Would you publicly curse Xi and denounce the CCP? What if they don't want to? There is a trend in the west that pretends like dissent would overflow in China if it wasn't suppressed, but what if people genuinely actually like the government? That doesn't seem to fit the narrative that people have the agency to think differently from the status quo Americans would like to impose upon the world. >I'm worried about wha…

> but what if people genuinely actually like the government?

If that were the case then there would be no need for the censorship.

Re: Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

#120
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much more mental gymnastics do we need? I think it's time to accept that he WASN'T jailed rather than trying to forcefully shoehorn the facts into a 'but China still bad' narrative. The HN commentary went from 'Jack Ma is a national security threat' to 'Jack Ma is a poor victim of the CCP will will never be seen again' to 'this is fake, he is still jailed'. If he shows up someone else in person next time, will pe…

> How much more mental gymnastics do we need? > I am from China and I have family in China. Would you publicly curse Xi and denounce the CCP? Please realize also that many in the West (myself included) are freaking out about China and are trying to counter its rise. This is a narrative that fits into their world view. I'm more worried about CCP fascism and hypersonic nukes than I am about climate change. I'm worried…

There are a couple of paradigm shifts needed.

In mainland China, people value outcome legitimacy rather than procedural legitimacy and freedom of speech. In other words: they care whether the government actually does a good job, rather than whether the procedure through which the government was selected is correct, or whether they could criticize Xi.

How would the government get feedback then if people aren't allowed to criticize? As I said before: one can submit feedback about policy. Just don't go around and insult people. The government monitors social media as well for grievances. At the same time they censor social media to prevent mass unrest, but they take grievances seriously and works to solve them.

Whereas the west has freedom of speech as a core value, mainland Chinese value unity, face, action over talk and freedom from poverty. To them, it's much more important to be able to have a good economic life, than freedom of speech. After all, 2 generations ago the Chinese were dirt-poor. When I was born, food rationing still existed!

As Kishore Mahbubani, ex-UN Security Council head and ex-Singapore diplomat, said: the CCP is in actuality more like a Chinese Civilization Party. Their goal is to advance the interests of Chinese civilization, not to spread communism world-wide.

China is not facist. Facism means that society is deliberately split up in classes (e.g. races), with one class being seen as inherently superior to other "untermenschen". This is not China. There's no notion that Han is better than Yao, or whatever. Official government policy is to give ethnic minorities preferential treatment, such as easier access to university.

Or maybe you're using "facism" as a generic word for something you don't like? This is an actual question, not a diss.

As for hypersonic weapons: yes escalating weaponry is not good. But on the other hand, the US is not blameless in this: "The US Has No Place in the South China Sea Dispute" https://original.antiwar.com/dave_decamp/2020/07/19/the-us-h... The US isn't supposed to be sailing warships around in the South China Sea in the first place. How about we all calm down and de-escalate at the same time, rather than trying to demonize a single party?

> When we have no other advantage, what then? Do we implode?

What made America and the west great? It's because of the great many talented individuals, focus on science and technology, investment in education, research and development. Keep doing that. We've been dropping that ball lately, becoming complacent. The west can easily compete with China toe-to-toe if only we get our shit together.

China is not interested in exporting its governance model. It has never done that. There's no evidence it ever will do that. Why should they? It's not in their interest to change others' governance model. China's rise as a superpower is easily the most peaceful one in human history.

China is not an enemy, not a threat. When China and the west come together, the whole world wins.

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