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Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

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261–270 of 366 posts

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#261
post #106
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phone unlocking doesn't get much attention, but it is an integral part that no one wants to address or get their hands dirty with. There are many more locked phones in drawers or acting as mere paperweights than people actually care to disclose. Several years back we ran a poll to understand lifetime recycling habits. People aren't proud of dropping a phone and shattering the screen, but they are less proud of having…

I live in the EU and have never encountered a carrier locked phone. It's quite an amusing concept, and the first carrier to come up with it must truly have been evil.

Isn't it about trade-offs? As long as my carrier provides my family with free iPhones, I will bear the inconvenience of requesting device unlock every few years. It takes 2 minutes to unlock it. If I am to pay full price for the device I will not get a locked one.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#263

I kind of wonder if we're looking at solving this the wrong way. Instead of mandating that manufacturers take specific steps to fix the waste problem, maybe it would be better to tag items at manufacture and charge device makers a percentage based on how long before it enters the waste stream. Manufacturers could solve this by either: - Making their things easy to repair - Creating in house recycling programs - Makin…

> 1) Making their things easy to repair. 2) Creating in house recycling programs. 3) Making equipment more durable and longer lasting The first and third should not be on equal footing with the second. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle is meant to be applied in that order. Many environmental crimes can be hidden in a recycling program. Many products are not truly recyclable, but tell consumers they are. Sometimes they are only…

Exactly. And the most impactful solution is also one incompatible with growth-based consumer economy: buy less stuff.

Recycling won't be an answer even if, through some miracle, everything would became fully recyclable in practice. The reason is that most materials cannot be recycled indefinitely - they degrade. On top of that, turning trash into input material usually consumes some non-recoverable matter (e.g. chemicals to clean and process it). Then there's production waste that isn't recoverable too. All of this adds up into continuous churn.

So with recycling, instead of a Mine->Manufacture->Use->Trash pipeline, you have... Mine->Manufacture->Use->Trash pipeline where a fraction of matter makes a cycle from Trash to Manufacture. Two perhaps not immediately obvious facts: one, that fraction of matter that gets recycled becomes a fraction of a fraction on its next cycle - which is a series that converges to 0. Two, none of this matters as long the pipeline itself is going through exponential growth. You may slow it a little, but it's still exponential.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#264
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making the producers responsible for the disposal might be the best way. I don't exactly know how it would be implemented but I'd like to see it for packaging too. Local authorities should be able to collect up all Mcdonalds packaging and hand it back to them. Make them responsible for its disposal. Then they will be incentivised to reduce the amount of packaging that they produce.

Germany has had this for years. Producers have to pay a recycling fee covering the disposal of the packaging they use. The yellow garbage can for recyclables is paid for by that fee. Also, merchants have to take back and dispose of any packaging they sell or use to ship. Hasn't really helped, amount of packaging is still increasing.

> amount of packaging is still increasing.

So in practice you pay more for nothing?

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#265

I kind of wonder if we're looking at solving this the wrong way. Instead of mandating that manufacturers take specific steps to fix the waste problem, maybe it would be better to tag items at manufacture and charge device makers a percentage based on how long before it enters the waste stream. Manufacturers could solve this by either: - Making their things easy to repair - Creating in house recycling programs - Makin…

The problem with the latter two options is that it allows manufacturers to continue with proprietary DRM and anti-consumer dickery.

The waste issue is important, but so is not invalidating physical things because of planned obsolescence, or that the manufacturer decided to stop reporting it.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#266
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany has had this for years. Producers have to pay a recycling fee covering the disposal of the packaging they use. The yellow garbage can for recyclables is paid for by that fee. Also, merchants have to take back and dispose of any packaging they sell or use to ship. Hasn't really helped, amount of packaging is still increasing.

It's really not something we can control effectively as consumers. My supermarket sells fruits and vegetables mostly pre-packaged. Fees are not enough, we need to make this kind of barely useful plastic containers illegal. Potatoes don't need to come in plastic containers.

Yes.

The "make producers pay" trope is also a fallacy imho. Packaging cost is just passed through the price to the consumer. Packaging and recycling are quite cheap for most products, so unpackaged goods are barely cheaper (often even more expensive, since enviromentally conscious stuff is "premium"). And unpackaged goods are damaged more often than properly packaged ones, so they'll rot on the shelves to be thrown away in a higher proportion. Consumers like their products nice and undamaged in presentable packaging, so they will subconciously prefer packaged goods. Therefore even with a slight decrease in per-item profits, producers will choose prettier packaging. So with only a slight price increase like paying for recycling, packaging will stay.

So to get rid of plastic packaging, we either need to ban it, make it vastly more expensive, far more than the consumer would want to bear, so they'd pick something unpackaged. But that is dangerous, because a cartel of producers could stay with packaging, then it is just another tax the consumer cannot avoid. Or we need to just ban certain kinds of packaging.

Also, there are hurdles for the sale of unpackaged goods, e.g. meat: I cannot take my own (reusable) plastic or metal box to the butcher's and have it filled with meat because of hygiene regulations preventing the butcher from handling my box. Supermarkets also are ill-equiped to deal with unpackaged goods in great quantities, dispensers, scales and stuff needs vastly more space. Just imagine the jam-shelf taking up as much space as the produce section, with some sticky floor due to the drippings...

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#267
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany has had this for years. Producers have to pay a recycling fee covering the disposal of the packaging they use. The yellow garbage can for recyclables is paid for by that fee. Also, merchants have to take back and dispose of any packaging they sell or use to ship. Hasn't really helped, amount of packaging is still increasing.

It's really not something we can control effectively as consumers. My supermarket sells fruits and vegetables mostly pre-packaged. Fees are not enough, we need to make this kind of barely useful plastic containers illegal. Potatoes don't need to come in plastic containers.

Whereas I agree, it is never so easy. For example, Oregon banned many single use plastic shopping bags. They went away briefly; however, a workaround has been found by stores. They are now using much heavier plastic bags and calling them "reusable". But most people seem to just treat them like the old disposable ones. So a well intentioned, but heavy handed law has put us a step back. We are now using more plastic per bag... The market is very creative, and bans must be made carefully to avoid making a situation worse.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#268
post #109
post #5

I can't describe how much I hope something comes out of it. Not because I have some illusion of this tackling corporate greed, or helping the environment - devices will likely become more expensive and bulkier as a result, supply chain of replacement parts is generating heaps of waste too. I simply am surrounded by tens and hundreds of sort-of-broken devices that don't force me to replace yet, but are not fixable eit…

I just had my 4000€ MacBook Pro (2017) die, 5 months out of warranty, because of a blown capacitor. (probably a $0.20 part tops) They have to change the whole motherboard, lose all my data. Price of a new machine... grumble, grumble

Planned obsolescence.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some notes about how all this is handled in Switzerland: 1- electronics HW (HDD, TV, microSD-card, etc..) recycling costs are already embedded in the cost of any new stuff that is sold (there is a little bit of extra price to be paid when buying new HW, that in turn will cover the costs to recycle the old HW that is probably being replaced or that will be replaced in the future). People dump their old HW to collectio…

Does Switzerland have any problems with illegal dumping? I'd imagine charging per bag of waste would cause that to increase.

You're right, it does happen, but not frequently respectively on a large scale.

For example:

1- it does happen that sometimes some illegal trash bags are found in the woods (most of the time it's still in trash bags and not spread everywhere as they usually don't contain animal/vegetable stuff, as that would anyway be free to be disposed of, therefore animals don't sniff it therefore they don't mess it up), but then they're reported to the police/municipality by whoever discovered them and are then collected.

2- same thing in urban areas: sometimes (very rarely as much as I know and have experienced) some "illegal" trash bags show up in your own trash-container, then usually you have to talk to the trash collector and they'll still pick it up.

But:

- about case #2, as mentioned in Wikipedia, the analysis of what's contained in the illegal trash does happen for real (kind of "CSI: Trash"), so if I would put into it something which shows my name (e.g. old newspaper) then I would be screwed (probably not the first time, but I would be by the 2nd or 3rd time that the same thing happens). Even if I would do everything perfectly then after at least the 2nd time all neighbours would all try to find the perpetrator => high risk.

- about case #1 and in general, the country is small and has a relatively high density in the habitable areas (e.g. not in the mountains) => many eyes around, so if you keep doing that twice or three times you are likely to be noticed by somebody, who will report that to the police or at least the municipality - same thing about rural areas (fewer eyes but as well fewer visitors, therefore likeliness of being observed doing something bad after repeated offense is still high). Nothing in the mountains as far a I know (too much effort driving up there to then take the risk to dump stuff while potentially being photographed from the other side of the valley by e.g. someone that was doing trekking).

I believe that we don't have problems with electronics like TVs, washing machines, HDDs, fridges, etc... because you can just dump them for free at any shop that sells them (that's the embedded-tax-thing I mentioned above), so it would be a waste of time & effort plus a lot of risk to dump them into the woods instead of doing the same thing comfortably and officially at any such shop (I admit that some shops get more old stuff than others due to their location and parking space, but nothing is perfect).

In bigger countries that have more open/free space, illegal dumping would most probably be a much bigger problem. But on one hand people that do repeated illegal dumping could still be caught, and on the other hand the target is never 100% - already having something like 75% of the population sticking to the waste disposal rules (recycling being a subset) is probably a huge improvement vs. doing nothing :)

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some notes about how all this is handled in Switzerland: 1- electronics HW (HDD, TV, microSD-card, etc..) recycling costs are already embedded in the cost of any new stuff that is sold (there is a little bit of extra price to be paid when buying new HW, that in turn will cover the costs to recycle the old HW that is probably being replaced or that will be replaced in the future). People dump their old HW to collectio…

Similar situation in Ireland to above regulations and processes. Also, if you buy anything with a plug, the retailer must accept the equivalent appliance you are replacing and recycle.

> the retailer must accept the equivalent appliance you are replacing and recycle.

Interesting - to be honest I'm not sure if Switzerland has the same rule or not - so far I always brought my old stuff to local retailers even if I didn't buy anything from them - usually we just leave the stuff outside of the shop in some designated areas. It could be that the retailers then "get a cut" on what is sent to be recycled, I honestly don't know, but so far nobody ever complained to me.

One thing that is not so great is that outside of those shops there are usually "scavengers" (trying to find something valuable that can be reused or sold - quite good chances for that to happen in Switzerland) that can make quite a mess (e.g. they might break a TV-panel trying to reach for whatever is behind them => glass everywhere on the floor).

I usually position my own stuff tactically to avoid that and leave on it a post-it stating something like "panel has broken pixels" or "device works but battery cannot be charged" or "works perfectly it was just old", etc... => little effort for me, less effort for the scavengers and the shop's recycling area doesn't get messed up :)

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