Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#61

Post by globile » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 3:50 PM UTC

fridek wrote: post #5

I can't describe how much I hope something comes out of it. Not because I have some illusion of this tackling corporate greed, or helping the environment - devices will likely become more expensive and bulkier as a result, supply chain of replacement parts is generating heaps of waste too. I simply am surrounded by tens and hundreds of sort-of-broken devices that don't force me to replace yet, but are not fixable eit…

Phone unlocking doesn't get much attention, but it is an integral part that no one wants to address or get their hands dirty with.

There are many more locked phones in drawers or acting as mere paperweights than people actually care to disclose.

Several years back we ran a poll to understand lifetime recycling habits. People aren't proud of dropping a phone and shattering the screen, but they are less proud of having thrown a phone into a drawer because they couldn't be bothered to run the obstacle course set up by their telco to keep them in check.

Phone right-to-repair should be EXPLICITLY INCLUSIVE of unlocking, otherwise it is only solving a part of the problem.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#62

Post by macNchz » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 3:50 PM UTC

stronglikedan wrote: post #32

onli wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They already are. Phones from 2016 for example feel completely usable today. That goes for the repairable ones at least, like the LG G5, but even the older LG G3 holds up well. If all modern phones were as repairable as those we could eliminate so much garbage!

My old phones are often usable, which is why I only upgrade every three years or so. However, when I do upgrade after waiting so long, it's like I've traveled through time with the improvements. It seems that most people want more than just usable. They may not want to pay more for a device up front, knowing they will be missing out on the latest technology down the road.

I've had an iPhone since 2009 and I'm definitely familiar with the "time traveling" effect of upgrading phones, but I think it has diminished a lot as the technology has matured.

I've been using a 6S since 2015 (this thread caught my interest because it's now somewhat of a Ship of Theseus as I've replaced so many parts over the years), but the 11 Pro I bought last year was the first time a multi-year-gap upgrade felt rather incremental, especially for $1100. I returned it and expect to continue to use and repair the 6S until they drop iOS support for it.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#63

Post by harrygeez » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 3:50 PM UTC

mywacaday wrote: post #51

mc32 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem with electronics is often a brand new unit costs less than replacing a faulty part on an old unit due to miniaturization and having everything on chip combined with economics of scale. Still it’s a worthwhile pursuit. At some point pocket PCs/phones will be good enough, just as for many a 2014 laptop is still good enough.

Youtube on my mother in laws Samsung tablet from 2013 has stopped working. It has stopped because it has android 4 and you can't update chrome past V42 and youtube won't load without a later version of chrome. I installed firefox and she has access to youtube through the web for now. The tablet is in immaculate condition physically. if it played youtube in 2013 it should be able to play it now, it cost over €500 at t…

There's a good chance you can find a compatible version of LineageOS. That should extend its lifespan considerably

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#64

Post by codethief » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 3:51 PM UTC

mywacaday wrote: post #51

mc32 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem with electronics is often a brand new unit costs less than replacing a faulty part on an old unit due to miniaturization and having everything on chip combined with economics of scale. Still it’s a worthwhile pursuit. At some point pocket PCs/phones will be good enough, just as for many a 2014 laptop is still good enough.

Youtube on my mother in laws Samsung tablet from 2013 has stopped working. It has stopped because it has android 4 and you can't update chrome past V42 and youtube won't load without a later version of chrome. I installed firefox and she has access to youtube through the web for now. The tablet is in immaculate condition physically. if it played youtube in 2013 it should be able to play it now, it cost over €500 at t…

I sympathize with your (mother-in-law's) situation! I, too, own a Samsung tablet from that period.

Have you checked whether you could install LineageOS or some other custom ROM on the tablet? That way, you might be able to extend its lifetime by another couple years.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#65

Post by macspoofing » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 3:51 PM UTC

readflaggedcomm wrote: post #7

haakonhr wrote: post #4

This is great, although it somehow seems to me to be starting in the wrong end. The underlying problem is that it is more profitable/cheaper to just give you a new product (if something breaks while under warrantee) and then just throw away the old instead of repairing it. I don't know if it is because the externalities of waste are not taxed properly or if it is because manufacturing products that are hard to repair…

When repair labor costs more than automated production, then it's cheaper to replace whole units than mend parts. This is very much in line when what the Luddites understood. Fixation on "waste" is a by-product of unrelated worries which are fashionable today, but cheap production at a distance is what labor should worry about, instead.

>When repair labor costs more than automated production, then it's cheaper to replace whole units than mend parts

We're not there yet. There are profitable businesses that can do repair and/or replacement of broken soldered IC chips in laptops and smartphones (see YouTube channels of Jessa Jones and Louis Rossmann). So cost of repair is not a barrier in many cases.

The problems they highlight, that should be very easy to fix through regulation, is lack of access to technical manuals, lack of access to diagnostic equipment and tech giants (like Apple) bullying their suppliers to prevent sale of replacement parts to independent repair shops.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#66

Post by larelli » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 3:52 PM UTC

nfriedly wrote: post #52

I just replaced the battery in my Pixel 2 this past weekend. It was a 2-3 hour project that involved a whole kit of tools in addition to the new battery. It was a PITA, but I am thankful that a) iFixit provided a helpful guide and a kit with all of the things I needed except for the rubbing alcohol and b) it was legal and there weren't any software issues to deal with. Aside from the aging battery and occasionally ru…

I'm in the same boat. What kept me from replacing the battery is that the device is EOL and won't receive any software updates, including security fixes. Did you also change the firmware?

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#67

Post by RHSeeger » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 3:53 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #19

onli wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They already are. Phones from 2016 for example feel completely usable today. That goes for the repairable ones at least, like the LG G5, but even the older LG G3 holds up well. If all modern phones were as repairable as those we could eliminate so much garbage!

My phone today is completely usable but the carrier has decided to stop issuing updates to the phone.... This is the worst kind of planned obsolesces

Creating those updates costs money. At what point is the cost no longer worth it? It is not realistic for companies to support every phone forever; I think that's something we can all agree on.

Would you be willing to pay whatever your share is of how much generating the update would cost, in order to get it? With a clear indicator when you buy the phone that you automatically get a subscription to 3 years worth of security updates; past that, you pay whatever amount is needed to keep it up to date.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#68

Post by mrweasel » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 3:54 PM UTC

modo_mario wrote: post #57

mrweasel wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There really isn’t much debate about “right to repair”, compared to the US. I think most just assume it’s not worth the hassel and cost. I would guess that the cost of repairing the average TV be at least 25 to 50% of the cost of a new TV. Highend stuff have always been repairable. The focus needs to be on making things repairable by the consumer, and easy to recycle. Both mean that you need to be able to take the it…

>Highend stuff have always been repairable. As some have found out if you try to offer repairs of something as a service because it requires a bunch of technical knowledge in a way that the company doesn't like you can get sued into bankruptcy. Things aren't repairable by consumers however easy it is to take em apart if you can't get official parts (at a reasonable price) and aren't technically allowed to use alterna…

You’re right, they are only repairable by manufacturer or a “certified” technicians, so it’s still a problem. It is however going to be easier for a company like B&O who already have a field servicable TV to comply with new regulations

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#69

Post by gruez » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 3:56 PM UTC

recursivedoubts wrote: post #14

A proposal: All durable consumer goods may apply for a repair QR code. At landfills, items with repair QR codes are scanned and the company is charged 50% of the cost of processing the item. If one is not applied for, the producer must pay the full cost of processing the item up front. This would encourage companies to make repair & upgrade and longetivity a priority. It's a rough idea.

>All durable consumer goods may apply for a repair QR code.

What if the QR code is mutilated?

>At landfills, items with repair QR codes are scanned and the company is charged 50% of the cost of processing the item.

This already exists in some jurisdictions, but the fee is levied at purchase time. eg. https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/taxes-and-fees/ewfaqsgen.htm

>This would encourage companies to make repair & upgrade and longetivity a priority.

not really. if you made a phone that lasts 6 years rather than 3 years, the fees manufacturers pays doesn't decrease by 50%, it remains the same. That's because at the end of the day, everything ends up in a landfill. The only benefit to the manufacturer in this case would be the time value of the deposit fee for 3 years.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#70

Post by mytailorisrich » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 3:58 PM UTC

mrweasel wrote: post #60

mytailorisrich wrote: post #20

First reaction is that this is good news, but I think two things needs to be looked at: One, what drives people to replace devices? I feel (not scientific at all!) that wanting a new shiny device and, if broken, cost of repair, are higher on the list than not being able to repair. Two, the law of unintended consequences: Making devices more repairable may increase their footprint in terms of material and thus waste.…

If people don’t adopt a mindset of repair/upgrade and just continue to replace devices at the same rate, then sure more material is going to be used. Those devices will be easier to take apart and recycle though. This isn’t just about phones and laptops, but also appliances, and people aren’t really upgrading fridges or stowes because a new model is available. Many only get new cars because the repair bill now exceed…

> Those devices will be easier to take apart and recycle though.

That's not a given. For things like smartphones I would much rather they enact laws to make them more recyclable than more repairable. And, let's be honest, smartphones don't require repairs often, if at all. Most common issue is probably shattered screen and that is already replaceable everywhere.

> and people aren’t really upgrading fridges or stowes because a new model is available.

Indeed, but they may replace an appliance (which already tend to be quite repairable) that is 5-10 years old and that has broken down because the cost of repairing it (parts plus labour) is in the same ball-park as the cost of a new one. Making appliances even more repairable won't change that.