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Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

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Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#201

Post by Spivak »

hippich wrote: post #193
ogre_codes wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Local authorities should be able to collect up all Mcdonalds packaging and hand it back to them. Absolutely! It is far too easy to create disposable crap that ends up dumped all over the planet. I get so frustrated seeing garbage all over the place in natural places. I do think its a lot easier to focus on the higher ticket items first.

You guys are forgetting another part of the chain, which can make decisions - consumers. If cost of throwing something away increases - may be that will make consumers choose something more reliable and serviceable. As if right now residential trash pickup service probably covers just the labor and machinery to get trash to the landfill

Laws like this are basically doomed at the start because consumers have very little choice in the amount of garbage they produce. It just ends up being an extra cost on consumers while the companies actually producing the trash go unpunished. There are some discretionary purchases like cards, wrapping paper, gift bags, single-use plastic bags that might move the needle a little but the bulk of my trash is packaging for stuff I have no choice but to take on. I can't give it back, I can't bring reusable containers, recycling won't take it.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#202

Post by boatsie »

I think a good way to ensure repairability is to require manufacturers to honor a relatively long warranty. For example many large appliances have 1 year warranties. After that you have to pay to repair (which is often 25-50% of the cost of new and not guaranteed) or toss it and buy new. If there were required warranty service based on waste generated from an item, eg a refrigerator must be warranted for 20 years, then you would see much better reliability and repairability.

Smaller, cheaper, more tech heavy items might have shorter required warranties, but the point is that you need to align the incentives by forcing manufacturer to bear the cost of the repair.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#203

Post by Spivak »

ogre_codes wrote: post #199
hippich wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You guys are forgetting another part of the chain, which can make decisions - consumers. If cost of throwing something away increases - may be that will make consumers choose something more reliable and serviceable. As if right now residential trash pickup service probably covers just the labor and machinery to get trash to the landfill

They tried that with televisions in California. The result? Televisions are one of the most common forms of road trash now. Often on the way to/ from the dump. As soon as you charge someone to get rid of something, the temptation to just dump it on the side of the road increases.

At scale this ends up being a public health issue because if you disincentivize getting rid of rotting food people get sick.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#204

Post by na85 »

sergeykish wrote: post #157
stronglikedan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My old phones are often usable, which is why I only upgrade every three years or so. However, when I do upgrade after waiting so long, it's like I've traveled through time with the improvements. It seems that most people want more than just usable. They may not want to pay more for a device up front, knowing they will be missing out on the latest technology down the road.

It is quite easy — invest in the most limiting factor, for example: * OnePlus 3, released in June 2016, 6 GB RAM. vs * iPhone 7, released in September 2016, 2 GB RAM. * iPhone 12 Pro Max, released in October 2020, 6 GB RAM. From my perspective smartphones have not changed much.

The processors have changed significantly. I had a OnePlus 3T which I really liked, and recently pulled it out of a box because my daily driver phone broke. The 3T struggled to load modern, bloated apps like Google Maps. The device would chug at most tasks more intensive than scrolling a webpage (and sometimes even then... what a sad state the web is in these days)

By contrast the processor in my work phone (an Iphone) is faster than my laptop.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#205

Post by tshaddox »

ogre_codes wrote: post #164

I kind of wonder if we're looking at solving this the wrong way. Instead of mandating that manufacturers take specific steps to fix the waste problem, maybe it would be better to tag items at manufacture and charge device makers a percentage based on how long before it enters the waste stream. Manufacturers could solve this by either: - Making their things easy to repair - Creating in house recycling programs - Makin…

Or go even a step further and directly address the fundamental problem, which is externalities. "Time to entering waste stream" still isn't the fundamental "end result" to optimize. Just require that the cost of plastic and other materials includes the cost of safe disposal or recycling, just like the cost of gasoline ought to include the cost of the externalities of burning it.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#206

Post by marcosdumay »

lostlogin wrote: post #181
aembleton wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making the producers responsible for the disposal might be the best way. I don't exactly know how it would be implemented but I'd like to see it for packaging too. Local authorities should be able to collect up all Mcdonalds packaging and hand it back to them. Make them responsible for its disposal. Then they will be incentivised to reduce the amount of packaging that they produce.

> Local authorities should be able to collect up all Mcdonalds packaging and hand it back to them. Yes, with a bill for the cost of collection and at some point (after repeated failures?), a fine to motivate a course correction.

> after repeated failures?

Failure to do what?

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#207

Post by inglor_cz »

paradox242 wrote: post #119
fridek wrote: post #5

I can't describe how much I hope something comes out of it. Not because I have some illusion of this tackling corporate greed, or helping the environment - devices will likely become more expensive and bulkier as a result, supply chain of replacement parts is generating heaps of waste too. I simply am surrounded by tens and hundreds of sort-of-broken devices that don't force me to replace yet, but are not fixable eit…

Common things that existed 20, 30, or even 40 years like refrigerators, coffee machines, dishwashers, washers, and dryers, often lasted 10 or 20 years in some cases, and could be repaired. We have witnessed the steep decline of device reliability in my lifetime, and our expectations are so low that the latest appliance we buy we consider lucky if no problems develop in 2-3 years. Anything serious requires you to usua…

The situation is not so clear-cut with domestic appliances. Modern fridges are much more energy-efficient. So there is a tradeoff: either you buy a new fridge, thus polluting the environment with the old fridge, but saving energy. Or you let your good old 30 year old fridge run, saving the resources needed for a new fridge, but burning a lot more energy in the process.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#208

Post by ryandrake »

ogre_codes wrote: post #174
aembleton wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making the producers responsible for the disposal might be the best way. I don't exactly know how it would be implemented but I'd like to see it for packaging too. Local authorities should be able to collect up all Mcdonalds packaging and hand it back to them. Make them responsible for its disposal. Then they will be incentivised to reduce the amount of packaging that they produce.

> Local authorities should be able to collect up all Mcdonalds packaging and hand it back to them. Absolutely! It is far too easy to create disposable crap that ends up dumped all over the planet. I get so frustrated seeing garbage all over the place in natural places. I do think its a lot easier to focus on the higher ticket items first.

The amount of plastic and paper packaging/marketing that you are forced to accept and dispose of when you buy products is getting extreme. I recently bought a micro-sd card, and had to dispose of: 1. the large shipping package, 2. the enormous (in volume and mass) product plastic shell package, 3. the glossy paper marketing insert inside the package, 4. the user’s manual (!), 5. the unwanted microsd-to-sd adapter. Probably 99.5% of the mass shipped to me was trash. Ridiculous that the manufacturer and shipper can just externalize that cost onto me and inevitably the environment.

I’d expect they could ship me the bare sd card in a tiny envelope without all that waste if they were incentivized to.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#209

Post by oauea »

tshaddox wrote: post #205
ogre_codes wrote: post #164

I kind of wonder if we're looking at solving this the wrong way. Instead of mandating that manufacturers take specific steps to fix the waste problem, maybe it would be better to tag items at manufacture and charge device makers a percentage based on how long before it enters the waste stream. Manufacturers could solve this by either: - Making their things easy to repair - Creating in house recycling programs - Makin…

Or go even a step further and directly address the fundamental problem, which is externalities. "Time to entering waste stream" still isn't the fundamental "end result" to optimize. Just require that the cost of plastic and other materials includes the cost of safe disposal or recycling, just like the cost of gasoline ought to include the cost of the externalities of burning it.

It's difficult to predict how much something will cost in the future. If your example was followed then a device that lasts a year and a device that lasts 10 years would have the same added cost. This is not ideal, since it may not be obvious to consumers how long the device will last.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#210

Post by anoncake »

aembleton wrote: post #170
ogre_codes wrote: post #164

I kind of wonder if we're looking at solving this the wrong way. Instead of mandating that manufacturers take specific steps to fix the waste problem, maybe it would be better to tag items at manufacture and charge device makers a percentage based on how long before it enters the waste stream. Manufacturers could solve this by either: - Making their things easy to repair - Creating in house recycling programs - Makin…

Making the producers responsible for the disposal might be the best way. I don't exactly know how it would be implemented but I'd like to see it for packaging too. Local authorities should be able to collect up all Mcdonalds packaging and hand it back to them. Make them responsible for its disposal. Then they will be incentivised to reduce the amount of packaging that they produce.

More realistically, make them pay for the disposal of as much garbage as they spread.
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