Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#151

Post by delecti » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 5:39 PM UTC

ako wrote: post #114

mywacaday wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Youtube on my mother in laws Samsung tablet from 2013 has stopped working. It has stopped because it has android 4 and you can't update chrome past V42 and youtube won't load without a later version of chrome. I installed firefox and she has access to youtube through the web for now. The tablet is in immaculate condition physically. if it played youtube in 2013 it should be able to play it now, it cost over €500 at t…

That is not planned obsolence. Nobody said this tablet should stop working by 2021. It's simply the result of limiting cost of software development. If you are creating a new version of android, you cant affort to support all devices. If you create a new version of chrome, you cant affort to support all version of android. If you create a new version of youtube, you cant afford to support all versions of chrome, etc,…

Agreed. I think there needs to be a better term for the reality of the situation, something like "negligent obsolescence". There's no technological limitation preventing Samsung from updating those for a decade or more, they just don't care. A battery degrading over time isn't planned obsolescence, and while not being able to easily replace the battery might be, more likely it's that they just don't bother to put in the slightly extra effort to make the batteries easier to replace. Right to Repair mandates would be a good start in ensuring manufacturers are properly motivated.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#152

Post by wizzwizz4 » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 5:40 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #140

paradox242 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common things that existed 20, 30, or even 40 years like refrigerators, coffee machines, dishwashers, washers, and dryers, often lasted 10 or 20 years in some cases, and could be repaired. We have witnessed the steep decline of device reliability in my lifetime, and our expectations are so low that the latest appliance we buy we consider lucky if no problems develop in 2-3 years. Anything serious requires you to usua…

Miele appliances (for example) still last decades and all efforts are made by the manufacturer to find you spare parts if you need. But they cost 3-4x more than a budget appliance. That's a key aspect of the market here: People tend to compare on purchase price. If manufacturers have to compete on price, of course something has to give in order to make cheaper appliances... The market tends to give consumers what the…

> The market tends to give consumers what they want.

The market tends to give consumers what they buy. This is distinct from what they ask for, which too is distinct from what they want, which too is distinct from what they like (and, while we're at it, from what they approve of).

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#153

Post by magicalhippo » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 5:40 PM UTC

Scoundreller wrote: post #92

magicalhippo wrote: post #45

Just yesterday my SO told me the subwoofer was broken. It's a wireless unit, which pairs with the soundbar, which I got with my TV about 5 years ago. I quickly come to the conclusion the power supply is broken. And of course the power supply is internal. I tried to open up the thing, being fairly competent with electronics. But try as I might, I just couldn't figure out how this thing comes apart. I don't want to bru…

Bad caps?

PSU is a flyback design.

I think the main freewheeling diode went (it's open now), and the resulting switching spikes from the transformer caused the switching converter[1] to fail.

So far those are the only two parts that appear broken.

As for the sub, I'd love to know!

[1]: integrated switch, I misspoke earlier

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#154

Post by sigmike » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 5:40 PM UTC

beyondcompute wrote: post #27

> Fix it. Where? I’d wanted to repair the most popular electric kick scooter in one of the Northern European countries for couple of years and I couldn’t find any place to do it (I asked all the sellers, sent lots of emails to different web shops, etc.). The economy in prosperous countries appears to be such that repair (especially of less fancy products) is so costly that it makes no sense often or is not possible a…

A Repair café[1][2] if you have one nearby.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repair_caf%C3%A9

[2] https://www.repaircafe.org/en/visit/

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#155

Post by oauea » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

Fradow wrote: post #122

oauea wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in the EU and have never encountered a carrier locked phone. It's quite an amusing concept, and the first carrier to come up with it must truly have been evil.

I live in the EU too (France), and any phone you buy directly from a carrier (generally heavily discounted, but tied to a more expensive plan) is carrier-locked, and can only be unlocked after a set amount of time has passed, or earlier by paying a fee (regulated by the EU if my memory serves me well). Perhaps it's because I was less financially literate in the past, but I remember that as being the only way in the 2…

Interesting. More specifically, I live in the Netherlands. Perhaps we already had regulation about this, or I've just been lucky.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#156

Post by mch0lic1 » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #140

paradox242 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common things that existed 20, 30, or even 40 years like refrigerators, coffee machines, dishwashers, washers, and dryers, often lasted 10 or 20 years in some cases, and could be repaired. We have witnessed the steep decline of device reliability in my lifetime, and our expectations are so low that the latest appliance we buy we consider lucky if no problems develop in 2-3 years. Anything serious requires you to usua…

Miele appliances (for example) still last decades and all efforts are made by the manufacturer to find you spare parts if you need. But they cost 3-4x more than a budget appliance. That's a key aspect of the market here: People tend to compare on purchase price. If manufacturers have to compete on price, of course something has to give in order to make cheaper appliances... The market tends to give consumers what the…

What I really hate about Miele is their stupid will to push their stupid branding on the retailers (online), it always feels broken and its absolutely a pain to try to navigate any sites that integrates with them.

Their tight grip on retailers also makes it hard to buy their products outside EU because nobody is willing to go through the pain. Add higher than average price and most smaller retailers just sell samsungs, lg and random chinese brands.

The biggest problem remains, manufacturers are not required to sell repairable devices and parts everywhere, requirement is only applicable to EU, so they will continue to manufacture trash and will never have their parts available outside EU. And no, those EUR parts will definitely won't fit 99% of their products outside EU.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#157

Post by sergeykish » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 5:50 PM UTC

stronglikedan wrote: post #32

onli wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They already are. Phones from 2016 for example feel completely usable today. That goes for the repairable ones at least, like the LG G5, but even the older LG G3 holds up well. If all modern phones were as repairable as those we could eliminate so much garbage!

My old phones are often usable, which is why I only upgrade every three years or so. However, when I do upgrade after waiting so long, it's like I've traveled through time with the improvements. It seems that most people want more than just usable. They may not want to pay more for a device up front, knowing they will be missing out on the latest technology down the road.

It is quite easy — invest in the most limiting factor, for example:

* OnePlus 3, released in June 2016, 6 GB RAM.

vs

* iPhone 7, released in September 2016, 2 GB RAM.

* iPhone 12 Pro Max, released in October 2020, 6 GB RAM.

From my perspective smartphones have not changed much.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#158

Post by BurningFrog » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #152

mytailorisrich wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Miele appliances (for example) still last decades and all efforts are made by the manufacturer to find you spare parts if you need. But they cost 3-4x more than a budget appliance. That's a key aspect of the market here: People tend to compare on purchase price. If manufacturers have to compete on price, of course something has to give in order to make cheaper appliances... The market tends to give consumers what the…

> The market tends to give consumers what they want. The market tends to give consumers what they buy . This is distinct from what they ask for , which too is distinct from what they want , which too is distinct from what they like (and, while we're at it, from what they approve of).

It's very hard to know what people, including yourself, really want.

So best we can do is observing "revealed preferences", which is what Economists call "what people actually choose".

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#159

Post by jokethrowaway » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

oauea wrote: post #106

globile wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phone unlocking doesn't get much attention, but it is an integral part that no one wants to address or get their hands dirty with. There are many more locked phones in drawers or acting as mere paperweights than people actually care to disclose. Several years back we ran a poll to understand lifetime recycling habits. People aren't proud of dropping a phone and shattering the screen, but they are less proud of having…

I live in the EU and have never encountered a carrier locked phone. It's quite an amusing concept, and the first carrier to come up with it must truly have been evil.

I live in the EU and I've avoided carrier locked phone for my entire life.

I know many who can't do math and paid twice the value of the phone for a locked device and some plan they never really used fully.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#160

Post by onli » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 5:59 PM UTC

harrierpigeon wrote: post #130

onli wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. Repairable hardware is just the one side, security updates needs to be available as well. We need mandated open sourcing of device software (including firmware and drivers + unlocking of the bootloader) after the support timerange, or at the very least alternatively the obligation to continue security updates for decades.

OTOH, you can wind up with stuff like installing an OS that requires more than the device has to offer- like installing the most recent version of Ubuntu Desktop on a Intel Core2 Duo isn't going to go well, nor did installing iOS 7 on iPhone 4's- which I remember eagerly installing without realizing the major slowdown all the new features added that I couldn't undo.

Linux usually works perfectly fine with old hardware, a Intel Core2 Duo should be completely enough. That's even 64 bit hardware. Worst case you have to swap out Gnome with something more minimal, but that's unlikely.