Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#101

Post by Nextgrid » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

khawkins wrote: post #47

Louis Rossman owns a repair shop in NYC and has been touring the nation lobbying for Right to Repair. He's rarely sees success though because the lobbyists for places like Apple have deep pockets and there isn't a lot of public outrage. The article is wrong to give any credit to Apple for being on the side of Right to Repair, as Louis explains in numerous videos. https://youtu.be/zFA3szW9nWk

The problem here isn't just lobbying but that the people in the government that we entrust to make these decisions are complete idiots. The lobbyists' arguments are so flawed that anyone with half a brain or a bit of common sense should be able to say "hold on, this is bullshit!" and yet these people are swallowing it whole.

I'd have more respect for them if they outright turned around and said "yeah we know we're screwing you over but the lobbyists' money is too good to pass up" but in this case they appear to be getting played without even realizing it themselves.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#102

Post by interestica » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

titzer wrote: post #71

fridek wrote: post #5

I can't describe how much I hope something comes out of it. Not because I have some illusion of this tackling corporate greed, or helping the environment - devices will likely become more expensive and bulkier as a result, supply chain of replacement parts is generating heaps of waste too. I simply am surrounded by tens and hundreds of sort-of-broken devices that don't force me to replace yet, but are not fixable eit…

> I just want a world where stuff lasting a lifetime exists. I think this is part of the point you are trying to make, but everything requires maintenance. Not sure what model fridge you have, but a bulb replacement should be not too hard to pull off on your own.

'maintenance' requires maintainable/replaceable parts.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#103

Post by nfriedly » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

larelli wrote: post #66

nfriedly wrote: post #52

I just replaced the battery in my Pixel 2 this past weekend. It was a 2-3 hour project that involved a whole kit of tools in addition to the new battery. It was a PITA, but I am thankful that a) iFixit provided a helpful guide and a kit with all of the things I needed except for the rubbing alcohol and b) it was legal and there weren't any software issues to deal with. Aside from the aging battery and occasionally ru…

I'm in the same boat. What kept me from replacing the battery is that the device is EOL and won't receive any software updates, including security fixes. Did you also change the firmware?

Not yet - it's currently on stock software, but I've run custom ROMs before and I'm planning to switch back to one soon. I was basically waiting to see if I could successfully replace the battery before putting much effort into the software side.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#104

Post by iamsb » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

Nextgrid wrote: post #79

iamsb wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sincerely hope that providing upgrades to software is also included as part of this. The only device I have which I dont actively use or give away is a Samsung galaxy tab which never received a single Android OS upgrade. I think it is reasonable for a consumer of a software+hardware integrated device to expect upgrades of software for say 3-5 years.

I think a better approach would be to force manufacturers to provide everything necessary for someone (the user or a third-party company) to develop alternative firmware. This means source code, datasheets of the hardware, and a way to bypass locked bootloaders or other code signature checks. Essentially, if you can't provide updates yourself, you should be giving away everything that's necessary for someone else to…

That is a brilliant suggestion.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#105

Post by interestica » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

bengale wrote: post #43

fridek wrote: post #5

I can't describe how much I hope something comes out of it. Not because I have some illusion of this tackling corporate greed, or helping the environment - devices will likely become more expensive and bulkier as a result, supply chain of replacement parts is generating heaps of waste too. I simply am surrounded by tens and hundreds of sort-of-broken devices that don't force me to replace yet, but are not fixable eit…

> there is no light in the fridge (but it still works) I normally find these types of appliances make parts readily available. I just replaced the locking mechanism on my washing machine for example, it was cheap and easy to order the parts I needed.

Sometimes the manufacturer makes it difficult. Replaced the light bulb in my parents' oven last week. The manufacturer only sold the bulb with the entire (expensive) housing as well. A bulb! We managed to find a supplier with a compatible bulb (which meant a quick swap).

I'd like to think there was a reason the manufacturer wanted the entire housing replaced?

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#106

Post by oauea » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

globile wrote: post #61

fridek wrote: post #5

I can't describe how much I hope something comes out of it. Not because I have some illusion of this tackling corporate greed, or helping the environment - devices will likely become more expensive and bulkier as a result, supply chain of replacement parts is generating heaps of waste too. I simply am surrounded by tens and hundreds of sort-of-broken devices that don't force me to replace yet, but are not fixable eit…

Phone unlocking doesn't get much attention, but it is an integral part that no one wants to address or get their hands dirty with. There are many more locked phones in drawers or acting as mere paperweights than people actually care to disclose. Several years back we ran a poll to understand lifetime recycling habits. People aren't proud of dropping a phone and shattering the screen, but they are less proud of having…

I live in the EU and have never encountered a carrier locked phone. It's quite an amusing concept, and the first carrier to come up with it must truly have been evil.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#107

Post by apexalpha » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

This couldn't come soon enough.

I just had my washing machine break. It kept giving error codes and the door won't lock.

I called the company who said the model is way to old to have warrenty, which is true, and then said they couldn't assist me in repairing. They said they could only send a (paid) technician.

I Youtubed the model and found an array of DIY repair videos. I used those to dissassemble the door lock mechanism only to find out it had short circuited. Here's the pics: https://imgur.com/a/ECM5AuI

And after I called for replacement parts they started berating me for trying to fix it myself, saying it could be dangerous and a potential fire hazard.

I hope this new law will help in this aspect; it's ridiculous I have to go to YouTube to find out how to repair a washing machine and the company itself refuses to help...

And 2 year warrenty is way too short anyway. I hope they change it into something dynamic like 1 year per €200 sale price or so.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#108

Post by brendoelfrendo » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:29 PM UTC

RHSeeger wrote: post #67

syshum wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My phone today is completely usable but the carrier has decided to stop issuing updates to the phone.... This is the worst kind of planned obsolesces

Creating those updates costs money. At what point is the cost no longer worth it? It is not realistic for companies to support every phone forever; I think that's something we can all agree on. Would you be willing to pay whatever your share is of how much generating the update would cost, in order to get it? With a clear indicator when you buy the phone that you automatically get a subscription to 3 years worth of s…

I think that the problem is central to how phones are developed and constructed. Dell doesn't determine how long my XPS 13 gets updated; they provided the hardware, and I can put any software I want on it. It can keep running a secure, up-to-date OS as long as I want it to, until the hardware truly can't keep up (which, based on computer lifetimes these days, is a long time).

Conceptually, I dislike that mobile development hasn't followed a similar path. Samsung should not dictate how many updates my phone gets and for how many years. Practically, I realize that this is a consequence of how we've built SOCs and mobile hardware and there's no incentive for companies to change. That doesn't make it less problematic.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#109

Post by nolite » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:30 PM UTC

fridek wrote: post #5

I can't describe how much I hope something comes out of it. Not because I have some illusion of this tackling corporate greed, or helping the environment - devices will likely become more expensive and bulkier as a result, supply chain of replacement parts is generating heaps of waste too. I simply am surrounded by tens and hundreds of sort-of-broken devices that don't force me to replace yet, but are not fixable eit…

I just had my 4000€ MacBook Pro (2017) die, 5 months out of warranty, because of a blown capacitor. (probably a $0.20 part tops)

They have to change the whole motherboard, lose all my data. Price of a new machine...

grumble, grumble

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#110

Post by rlpb » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:31 PM UTC

m000 wrote: post #88

rlpb wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about this, along the same lines: Manufacturers must pay 100% of the cost of safe, environmental disposal of all consumer goods they sell. This is collected in the form of a tax, for all manufacturers over some threshold sales value/volume, based on an impact assessment of disposal cost. The assessment is based on the typical practical burden to disposal facilities to process each SKU. There's no need to individu…

Bad plan. The problem is not have someone pay for the disposal, but delay disposal for as long as possible. And the ones who make the decision for the disposal are the consumers. Having the manufacturer pay a tax in advance puts little pressure on the consumer. Moreover, anything that involves an "assessment" is bound to be gamed by the manufactures. See e.g. the recent VW car emission scandal.

The point is that the economic equation will change. Why is it that it's cheaper to buy new than repair old? In part, it's because the cost of disposal has been shifted away, rather than being incorporated into the price of the replacement.

Having the manufacturer pay a tax in advance does put pressure on the consumer, because that tax has to be incorporated into the product pricing.

> Moreover, anything that involves an "assessment" is bound to be gamed by the manufactures. See e.g. the recent VW car emission scandal.

I agree it's a challenge. I wonder if there's some way to close the loop - so that manufacturers who game the system to achieve an artificially low disposal price end up making up the shortfall when the fake price isn't achieved.