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Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

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Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#81

Post by dvdkon »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #20

First reaction is that this is good news, but I think two things needs to be looked at: One, what drives people to replace devices? I feel (not scientific at all!) that wanting a new shiny device and, if broken, cost of repair, are higher on the list than not being able to repair. Two, the law of unintended consequences: Making devices more repairable may increase their footprint in terms of material and thus waste.…

At least for me, I wouldn't have bought as many devices over the last few years if they were more repairable, and I do enjoy having a large collection of hardware.

I had to abandon my last few phones due to cracked screens, water damage and other hardware faults. Even if I could find replacements for the damaged parts (and I tried), they wouldn't be official and would likely be of a lower quality. Furthermore, most modern phones are really hard to put together to the original quality standards, requiring for example new pre-cut adhesive and whole new backplates, since the original ones will get scratched during disassembly.

My purchases are (at least partially) driven by wanting a shiny, new-looking device that doesn't have any flaws. But, perhaps counter-intuitively, proper repairability would allow me to maintain my devices in this state for a much longer time, which would lead to me purchasing fewer new devices.

Repairability this good would also be great for the used market. Right now you never know what faults a phone/notebook/other miniaturised device might have and if they're there, getting rid of them might cost as much as the device. This means that people who want 100% working devices are more likely to buy new. For other products (for example desktop PCs), the chance that an irreparable fault exists is much lower, so buying used is safer.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#82

Post by jsmith45 »

simongray wrote: post #6
antattack wrote: post #2

Speaking of waste. I researched about photoresistor (LDR) recently and learned from Wikipedia that cadmium based ones are restricted in EU. I wonder why they are not outlawed in US if the substance is toxic and can leak into water supply, etc. As to right-to-repair, EU seems ahead on that front but US has one regulation which EU does not which is Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act.

> Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act I'm not that familiar with US consumer law. What makes this regulation favourable compared to the equivalent EU laws?

In the US it is illegal to "void" a warranty based on the user swapping a part out with a third party component, or having a third party service the device. There are of course some exceptions.

You can void a waranty with respect to damage caused by impropper servicing, or damage caused by the replacement parts.

Alternatively you can void warranty on basis of using third party parts or servicing if you provide said parts/services for free.

Idea was: Warranty void is non-GM parts are used => Illegal, unless GM provides all parts for free. Waranty void for getting oil changes at a non-dealer => Illegal unless oil changes are provided completely free at the dealers.

While I suspect that most EU countries have similar rules for cars and the like, in the US these rules apply to any consumer good that costs $5 or more with a warranty (there could be some rare exceptions, as the FTC can grant waiver if the manufacturer can show that it is not possible for a third party to provide parts or service that will work properly, and that granting the waiver is in the public interest). Further free parts and services requirement applies to any form of repair and servicing.

In the US, if you don't provide free screen replacement for a cell phone dropped by negligence, then you cannot legally deny warranty on the battery solely because a third party screen was used, unless you can show the third party screen or the process of installing it caused the battery problem. Of course, if you can show the battery problem was caused by dropping it in the first place, then you can deny warranty replacement.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#83

Post by globile »

Nextgrid wrote: post #73
globile wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phone unlocking doesn't get much attention, but it is an integral part that no one wants to address or get their hands dirty with. There are many more locked phones in drawers or acting as mere paperweights than people actually care to disclose. Several years back we ran a poll to understand lifetime recycling habits. People aren't proud of dropping a phone and shattering the screen, but they are less proud of having…

Carrier locks are an absolute scam. The argument is that it allows carriers to offer subsidised phones and “repossess” them if the customer defaults on their bill by making it unusable. However, in reality, not only does the carrier not mind if the phone keeps being used (as long as it’s on the carrier’s network) but the lock doesn’t expire once the customer pays off their plan. Furthermore the process for unlocking…

Absolutely. Remember the "2014 Obama Unlocking Law" [1] ? It was supposed to not only not make it ilegal to carrier unlock a phone, but also forced all carriers to adopt a specific code of conduct to assist users with unlocking.

Fast forward 6 years, and it is much harder to unlock a phone than it was then. The whole thing backfired for consumers. It was actually easier to unlock a phone in a "non-legal" way before the law than it was right after.

This whole new code of conduct for carriers actually made them convert their SIMlock departments to be more like a customer retention lifecycle.

This mainly applies to US carriers (in the US and Latam), and there certainly are exceptions in Europe where EVERY cell phone is unlocked from day one, regardless of your contractual status.

[1]: https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2014/08/15/heres-h...

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#84

Post by kwhitefoot »

globile wrote: post #61
fridek wrote: post #5

I can't describe how much I hope something comes out of it. Not because I have some illusion of this tackling corporate greed, or helping the environment - devices will likely become more expensive and bulkier as a result, supply chain of replacement parts is generating heaps of waste too. I simply am surrounded by tens and hundreds of sort-of-broken devices that don't force me to replace yet, but are not fixable eit…

Phone unlocking doesn't get much attention, but it is an integral part that no one wants to address or get their hands dirty with. There are many more locked phones in drawers or acting as mere paperweights than people actually care to disclose. Several years back we ran a poll to understand lifetime recycling habits. People aren't proud of dropping a phone and shattering the screen, but they are less proud of having…

Mobiles in Europe are generally unlockable by calling the network supplier after the contract expires. In Norway, in my experience at least, this is free.

But the reason I have a handful of paperweight mobiles is not that they are locked but that they are no longer useful. They have low resolution cameras, little memory, small screens, obsolete operating systems, etc. I sometimes try to sell them but no one wants them even free.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#85

Post by throwaway3699 »

fridek wrote: post #5

I can't describe how much I hope something comes out of it. Not because I have some illusion of this tackling corporate greed, or helping the environment - devices will likely become more expensive and bulkier as a result, supply chain of replacement parts is generating heaps of waste too. I simply am surrounded by tens and hundreds of sort-of-broken devices that don't force me to replace yet, but are not fixable eit…

With China clamping down on E Waste imports, the EU may actually be happy to push for something that's pro-environment. I think aligning the incentives properly will be a great thing long term.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#86

Post by Scoundreller »

RankingMember wrote: post #55
bengale wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is no light in the fridge (but it still works) I normally find these types of appliances make parts readily available. I just replaced the locking mechanism on my washing machine for example, it was cheap and easy to order the parts I needed.

It depends. A lot of modern fridges use LEDs and have control boards driving them that cost hundreds of dollars. If the LEDs are out, the likelihood is not that the LEDs are dead, but that something much more expensive failed.

My guess is that the LEDs are in series on a strip, and one burnt out.

The fridge manufacturer probably assumed it’ll always run cold (it’s a fridge right?) and overdrove them too hard to get just as much light out of 20 LEDs instead of 24.

Could bridge the faulty LED with solder to buy some time, and find a donor LED from a “burnt out” LED light bulb or whatevs and solder it in.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#87

Post by tsdlts »

readflaggedcomm wrote: post #7
haakonhr wrote: post #4

This is great, although it somehow seems to me to be starting in the wrong end. The underlying problem is that it is more profitable/cheaper to just give you a new product (if something breaks while under warrantee) and then just throw away the old instead of repairing it. I don't know if it is because the externalities of waste are not taxed properly or if it is because manufacturing products that are hard to repair…

When repair labor costs more than automated production, then it's cheaper to replace whole units than mend parts. This is very much in line when what the Luddites understood. Fixation on "waste" is a by-product of unrelated worries which are fashionable today, but cheap production at a distance is what labor should worry about, instead.

When the repair costs are controlled by the manufacturer, you shouldn't be surprised when the repair becomes cost prohibitive. This is why having only Ford being able to repair Fords and Apple only able to repair Apple devices is a negative. When they own the monopoly they can make any claim they want and you have no option of a second opinion.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#88

Post by m000 »

rlpb wrote: post #44
recursivedoubts wrote: post #14

A proposal: All durable consumer goods may apply for a repair QR code. At landfills, items with repair QR codes are scanned and the company is charged 50% of the cost of processing the item. If one is not applied for, the producer must pay the full cost of processing the item up front. This would encourage companies to make repair & upgrade and longetivity a priority. It's a rough idea.

How about this, along the same lines: Manufacturers must pay 100% of the cost of safe, environmental disposal of all consumer goods they sell. This is collected in the form of a tax, for all manufacturers over some threshold sales value/volume, based on an impact assessment of disposal cost. The assessment is based on the typical practical burden to disposal facilities to process each SKU. There's no need to individu…

Bad plan. The problem is not have someone pay for the disposal, but delay disposal for as long as possible. And the ones who make the decision for the disposal are the consumers. Having the manufacturer pay a tax in advance puts little pressure on the consumer.

Moreover, anything that involves an "assessment" is bound to be gamed by the manufactures. See e.g. the recent VW car emission scandal.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#89

Post by Scoundreller »

emteycz wrote: post #29
vagrantJin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That manufacturers are actually hostile towards end users says a lot about our current state of helplessness.

I had multiple manufacturers of kitchen appliances send me schematics so I could fix it myself instead of paying for a service visit. Many vendors have service guides online, including lists of parts. That's not hostile at all. You have to choose what you're buying, but it's not hard to buy from a solid company.

I had to fix my circa 2005 Kenmore dryer and it had a folded up paper schematic behind the panel!!!

Note: whenever throwing those things out, save the knobs. They’re like $10+ each.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#90

Post by Nextgrid »

martinald wrote: post #35
onli wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. Repairable hardware is just the one side, security updates needs to be available as well. We need mandated open sourcing of device software (including firmware and drivers + unlocking of the bootloader) after the support timerange, or at the very least alternatively the obligation to continue security updates for decades.

Who is actually going to update this even if it is open source though? There are so many drivers and firmware in a smartphone, nevermind the tens of thousands of models of smartphones out there. It would require an army of people to patch, test and distribute everything. That's even if you can figure out all this code.

I don't think this should be a consideration.

I agree that the manufacturer or carrier doesn't owe you updates indefinitely, but they definitely should give you all the resources you need to develop these updates yourself if you wanted to.

The landscape can change. Maybe there's going to be a huge open-source project that will make these updates. Maybe someone will figure out a way to automatically handle a large number of hardware configurations at scale (a powerful enough hardware abstraction layer should be able to deal with it). Maybe someone will make a business out of it, providing security updates at a reasonable cost. Either way, there shouldn't be any artificial hurdles against the customer developing and running their own firmware on hardware they paid money for.

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