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Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

asahilinux.org

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Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#401
post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they can sell you a mac for $1500 I don't think they are very concerned that you're not spending 50 bucks a year on iCloud. I mean, if they prevent Linux you probably won't buy a mac at all, you won't prioritise using an M1 macbook over using Linux if you're a hardcore Linux nerd. Bottomline is that yes they are greedy, but they are not trying to stop people from installing Linux on macs just to perhaps earn some…

Counter point: they have no problem charging $1000+ for iPhones and lock them down to only run the operating systems and apps they approve because consumers of them were largely not technical enough to understand they don't own their own devices. Apple is motivated to do this as soon as they feel they can get away with it and keep profits as high or higher.

I’m not saying they have any moral objections to locking the macs, it just doesn’t make any financial sense. Enough people want to run windows or linux for them to make the effort to make that possible. It’s also more in the spirit of PCs to have this possibility.

For phones, basically nobody wants to run android on an iphone, so it makes no sense to make it possible.

Keep in mind that they don’t lock down iOS because they hate our freedoms, it’s because it is much harder to make it safe and secure if it’s also very open. And since the market of people wanting to run other OSs is so small, they don’t want to take the additional cost.

As to owning you device. Unless you buy real hand stitched shoes with leather soles, your shoes are most likely completely impossible to repair, they’re basically molded rubber. It’s not because Nike hates freedom or even because they want you to buy new shoes more often, it’s because it’s so much cheaper to make shoes that way. But would you argue that you “don’t own your sneakers”?

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> teensiest bit of cooperation Apple did put in the effort to cooperate when they added support to boot other OSes. Apple hasn’t prevented anyone from running Linux, they simply haven’t written Linux drivers for their hardware or provided a manual to do so. Most of the effort in Asahi Linux is going to be writing drivers for hardware that hasn’t had Linux drivers written for it. It makes sense that a Linux driver doe…

Apple never added support to boot other OSes on arm macs.

It’s been less than 3 months. It took longer than that for them to launch Boot Camp.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple doesn't lose anything by opening up to other OSes (or they could single out free ones). The hardware has already been sold, nobody's returning OSX for a refund. If anything, they're missing out on sales to people that live by "Linux or bust" motto.

Back when Apple was a PowerPC platform I worked for a company that ported Linux to their devices (Yellow Dog Linux). It made sense because the PowerPC was a cheap RISC alternative so it was great for scientific applications that didn't want to pay out the nose for full-blown RISC hardware. At the time Apple saw this as putting an ugly, buggy OS on their awesome sexy hardware and it damaged their brand. Many people in…

Apple supported porting a Linux variant to PPC Macs.

https://www.mklinux.org/info/aboutfr.html

During the early years, most MkLinux development occurred either at Apple or at The Open Group Research Institute in Grenoble, France. MkLinux Developer Release 1 (DR1) was released in early 1996.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#404
post #263
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bad faith argument. The presupposition is that Apple is inherently motivated to actively lock things down, because that's what they do with the iPhone. This glosses over that Apple has no reason to actually do so, only has reasons not to do it on the Mac, and has gone on record saying they won't treat the Mac as the iPhone. It's based on the notion that Apple would be against free booting a priori for some rea…

> The presupposition is that Apple is inherently motivated to actively lock things down, because that's what they do with the iPhone. This glosses over that Apple has no reason to actually do so, only has reasons not to do it on the Mac, and has gone on record saying they won't treat the Mac as the iPhone. What is the difference between an iPad pro and a MacBook? If Apple can get away with a 30% tax on all commercial…

You realize that the Mac App Store has been around for 10 years and people have been saying that Apple is going to lock down MacOS for just as long?

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#405
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bad faith argument. The presupposition is that Apple is inherently motivated to actively lock things down, because that's what they do with the iPhone. This glosses over that Apple has no reason to actually do so, only has reasons not to do it on the Mac, and has gone on record saying they won't treat the Mac as the iPhone. It's based on the notion that Apple would be against free booting a priori for some rea…

We've seen Apple remove competition from the App Store at will. This is not theoretical.

What “competition” have they removed?

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I'm having trouble making the leap from this: "Apple checks which macOS applications I run in order to verify that the developers credentials are still valid and not expired/revoked, but only for macOS apps and not executables in general, and you can still open apps that are not signed with a Developer ID using a manual bypass" (which is certainly not ideal but seems like a reasonable security compromise. Ther…

I suggest you read the comments in the linked thread. Why do I have to repeat those who can explain better than me? It's pretty clear that the current state: 1) cannot be called "fully unlocked", 2) more locked than what people used to have, even on Apple devices. It might be fine for you, but it certainly is potentially bad for privacy and freedom. Look up keyword "tor" in the thread if genuinely want to understand…

Maybe you should go back and read the article that spawned this thread. Apple literally put engineering time + effort just to allow 3rd-party OSes to be run on their chip. That doesn't strike me as the move of a company that wants to lock down their OS.

You can disagree with the tradeoffs Apple decided to make in the name of security/privacy, fair enough. And you can certainly blame them for their mistakes (like not thinking to handle a case where their Developer ID verification servers were offline). But practically, these tradeoffs don't really hamper almost anyone's usage of the OS, and the few people for whom it does can disable them.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#407
post #7

Very interesting overall. > Apple allows booting unsigned/custom kernels on Apple Silicon macs without a jailbreak! This isn’t a hack or an omission, but an actual feature that Apple built into these devices. Indefinitely? How do we know it's a feature vs a temporarily convenient oversight? > Our goal is not just to make Linux run on these machines, but to polish it to the point where it can be used as a daily OS. Do…

If Apple would cooperate just a tiny bit, I assume the Linux community would gladly do all the rest for them. The M1 Macbooks are actually quite reasonably priced IMO. Right now it's even hard to find an AMD Ryzen 4000 laptop with >FHD screens...

If you get Linux developers onto your platform, you unlock the server market, I assume. I don't get why Apple would not open that possibility for their silicon future.

I think a downside to have Macs running Linux would be extended hardware support and evasion of their obsolescence strategies.

Overall, I think they could win a lot, so there is a desperate hope they change their minds on that. At least, I would be completely lost on them, if AMD manages to match their performance and there gonna be well-screened AMD laptops.

Apple, you got this current advantage to win people like me over. Once the others catch up, this opportunity will probably not arise again, as I will never ever settle on MacOS or Windows, especially with the current course of increasingly restricting how I could use a >1.5k€ device.

If the M1 Air had proper Linux support (at least committed), I would buy right now in an instant. I naively believe, if you don't get Linux people like me, Apple's silicon endeavour will not get a hold in the larger CPU/GPU market.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#408
post #79

A lot of time, money and effort invested to support a platform whos creator is unwilling to provide support. I think it's part of the Linux ethos to run on everything, but I also think this kind of effort is ... not wasted, but I feel like it could be spent more efficiently. Still looking forward to hear about the first successful boots and the epic reverse engineering feats. Just wish this kind of stuff wouldn't be…

Mac hardware is just so damn good though. And everywhere. I absolutely agree with what you're saying... but man, Linux working well on an M1 Mac would be my ideal machine.

For me, to specify, Linux on an "iPad" with either chip. Laptops are a (now) horrible legacy design. If I want more compute, I would like the "iPad" as screen for a "Mac mini" sized system.

1. Linux

2. Not Intel

3. Good screen for text, "13 inch"

4. Pen input, for writing and drawing

5. Battery life

My dreams are modest; fuck you universe!

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#409
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several mobile GPUs have been reverse-engineered so it's not as hard as you think. As for the ecosystem, if users care enough to pay for it then it doesn't matter how little Apple cares.

Small variants/extensions of mobile GPUs have been shoehorned to work with existing drivers or provide very basic framebuffer capability. This isn't exactly vulkan running on Apple-silicon level of functionality. Maybe Apple's implementation isn't so alien after all and these great folks will pull it off. I hope they do, but I'm still tempering my expectations.

Dissecting the Apple M1 GPU, part I: https://rosenzweig.io/blog/asahi-gpu-part-1.html

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#410
post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counter point: they have no problem charging $1000+ for iPhones and lock them down to only run the operating systems and apps they approve because consumers of them were largely not technical enough to understand they don't own their own devices. Apple is motivated to do this as soon as they feel they can get away with it and keep profits as high or higher.

I’m not saying they have any moral objections to locking the macs, it just doesn’t make any financial sense. Enough people want to run windows or linux for them to make the effort to make that possible. It’s also more in the spirit of PCs to have this possibility. For phones, basically nobody wants to run android on an iphone, so it makes no sense to make it possible. Keep in mind that they don’t lock down iOS becaus…

How do you know the number of people that want this, and how large is the number of 'enough', and what other numbers come in to play? (Number of incidents, number of happy users, number of systems to support, number of binaries to consider during upgrades, number of sales... and is 'enough' a percentage? An absolute number? And how high does it need to be? And to what degree does it need to align with the goals of the product teams?)

My gut feeling would say: a bunch of hackers would be happy if they can hack on their code on Apple hardware but run plain FreeBSD or Linux while doing it. But that is not something you run a multi-billion business on...

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