Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project • Hacker News Board

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#351

Post by jmnicolas » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 12:05 PM UTC

Grustaf wrote: post #347

jmnicolas wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't boot your Intel of AMD CPU without their signed and sometimes encrypted code. Except that Intel and AMD don't care what you run on your machine, they don't lose money if you don't run their software. When you run Linux on a MAC, Apple isn't getting money from their iCloud subscriptions and from the store so they have a motive to stop you from escaping the walled garden.

You don't need iCloud to use macOS. And macOS itself is free, as is their awesome office apps, XCode and a lot of other useful apps and services.

Of course but if you run Linux they're sure you will never earn them any money from these services.

So at one point they could decide that they don't want people to use Linux on their Macs and there's nothing you could do.

Look at what happened to CentOS.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#352

Post by SXX » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 12:09 PM UTC

gorkish wrote: post #244

bluepizza wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is all a noble goal, but I can't see this as being anything other than a complete and total non-starter with zero cooperation from Apple. Why? There have been several success cases of reverse engineering in the past, for all sorts of popular and fringe hardware.

I am all about the hacker cred here, but you need only take a look at the most directly comparable project, Nouveau to get an idea of how ridiculous the thought is that greenfield reverse engineering of apple's custom GPU will result in something that is desktop-class usable and reliable. Please remember that Nouveau can't even do better than a framebuffer on anything newer than a geforce 10 series card. GPU developm…

The reason why Nouveau got stuck is because Nvidia intentionally changed firmware loading process to break Nouveau and not cooperating on providing firmware. Also part of the problem is that main Nouveau developers are from Red Hat and they are limited in terms of RE of actual Nvidia code. Unfortunately some of Nouveau contributors dropped their efforts once Nvidia began to be actively hostile to the project.

If you look at GPUs like GTX 650 they actually almost have feature-parity and 90% of performance. I personally used GT710 on my PC and while it super-low-end card it's really decent under Nouveau and can drive 3 of 2K displays with 75Hz and lag-free.

As for Apple hardware it's different at least because Marcan isn't as limited in terms of keeping source code purity. After all Apple dont have any Linux drivers so there is no way to RE any code that can be directly applied to Linux graphics stack.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#353

Post by viktorcode » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 12:14 PM UTC

SomeHacker44 wrote: post #177

pkulak wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mac hardware is just so damn good though. And everywhere. I absolutely agree with what you're saying... but man, Linux working well on an M1 Mac would be my ideal machine.

Every time I accidentally hit something on the touch bar, I hate that I still have a Mac. Every time I intentionally use the ESC and have to touch it two or three times, I hate the Mac. Every time I need an F key, or want to do something without looking (like change volume or hit mute), I hate the Mac. Thank goodness this year I stopped using it so much as I did not have to repair the keyboard twice and potentially g…

I find it interesting that all your gripes are focused on keyboard, yet you hate the Mac

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#354

Post by WanderPanda » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 12:16 PM UTC

esclerofilo wrote: post #200

WanderPanda wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it is not Qualcomm that is to blame, but it is Apple to be praised. But I guess I am talking glass half full / half empty here, so nevermind :D

I think they are to blame. Qualcomm is one of the biggest (if not THE biggest) manufacturer of ARM chips, yet they still simply use reference designs. Besides, for the next flagship (Snapdragon 888) they switched to Samsung 5nm (inferior to TSMC 5nm) and they're not even using the ARM-recommended 8MB L3 cache, but staying with 4MB. It seems benchmarks for tha SoC aren't bad, but it really shows that they aren't reall…

But isn't ARM to be blamed if the standard designs (which apparently almost everyone is using) are inferior?

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#355

Post by Grustaf » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 12:30 PM UTC

jmnicolas wrote: post #351

Grustaf wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need iCloud to use macOS. And macOS itself is free, as is their awesome office apps, XCode and a lot of other useful apps and services.

Of course but if you run Linux they're sure you will never earn them any money from these services. So at one point they could decide that they don't want people to use Linux on their Macs and there's nothing you could do. Look at what happened to CentOS.

If they can sell you a mac for $1500 I don't think they are very concerned that you're not spending 50 bucks a year on iCloud.

I mean, if they prevent Linux you probably won't buy a mac at all, you won't prioritise using an M1 macbook over using Linux if you're a hardcore Linux nerd.

Bottomline is that yes they are greedy, but they are not trying to stop people from installing Linux on macs just to perhaps earn some extra dollars.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#356

Post by Grustaf » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 12:32 PM UTC

seba_dos1 wrote: post #349

Grustaf wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did Apple ever try to prevent people from running Linux on Macs? It sounds like that is what you're saying, but my impression is quite the opposite, the made Bootcamp etc.

...which doesn't work at all on arm macs this submission is about.

Yes, but the effort they put into that clearly shows that they are not against people installing other OSs, so there are other reasons, like the fact that the M1 macs have only been out for a month.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#357

Post by eeZah7Ux » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 12:35 PM UTC

somehnguy wrote: post #278

Is anyone else ever saddened when they think about the man hours spent on projects like this (reversing software or hardware to accomplish what should be a simple goal) when all it would take is the teensiest bit of cooperation to not waste all those hours? I use waste in the sense of like trying to assemble something complicated with the instructions just out of arms reach, not in the sense of doing something pointl…

No, I'm saddened that people spend hours to support hardware from companies that go against users freedoms.

We should work on what matters: free software, open hardware.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#358

Post by IanSanders » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 12:38 PM UTC

modo_mario wrote: post #342

paulryanrogers wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple sells hardware and now services. Software seems to be a cost center. So I doubt a third party OS like Linux will ever be a priority for them in their consumer products.

People aren't asking them to go out of their way to provide support or develop anything. Only to be open with their already existing documentation so that those open source devs that want can without doing unneeded work.

They may not want to encourage it. Being able to run linux comfortably would make users less dependent on the ecosystem

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#359

Post by pjmlp » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 12:41 PM UTC

fattire wrote: post #339

jacobmischka wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is the reason. It is ingrained in Apple's ethos to prevent users from tinkering with their "perfect" devices, it was a core belief instilled by Jobs from the earliest days of the organization. Certainly, that could change given that he's no longer around, but change in a large organization often takes a long time or some external force. Since it's the most profitable company in the world, I don't e…

The original Apple Computer schematics were distributed by the company.

They were, and then there was NuBus, Apple's own floppy format, OS used a mix of Object Pascal and Assembly, Quickdraw, Quickdraw3D, NuBus, NetTalk,...

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#360

Post by dusted » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 12:42 PM UTC

somehnguy wrote: post #278

Is anyone else ever saddened when they think about the man hours spent on projects like this (reversing software or hardware to accomplish what should be a simple goal) when all it would take is the teensiest bit of cooperation to not waste all those hours? I use waste in the sense of like trying to assemble something complicated with the instructions just out of arms reach, not in the sense of doing something pointl…

Yes.

"Oh, there's this hardware where the vendor tries actively to lock people out of other platforms and lock them into their own, they're real nasty guys.. Know what we should do? We should spend a lot of time making their product better, so more people will buy it, so they can continue their policies."