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Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

asahilinux.org

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Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#261

Post by e12e »

DCKing wrote: post #33
libria wrote: post #7

Very interesting overall. > Apple allows booting unsigned/custom kernels on Apple Silicon macs without a jailbreak! This isn’t a hack or an omission, but an actual feature that Apple built into these devices. Indefinitely? How do we know it's a feature vs a temporarily convenient oversight? > Our goal is not just to make Linux run on these machines, but to polish it to the point where it can be used as a daily OS. Do…

> Indefinitely? How do we know it's a feature vs a temporarily convenient oversight? I would point out that Apple has permitted booting alternative operating systems throughout their m68k (at least the m68ks that could meaningfully boot Linux or a BSD derivative) [1], PowerPC [2], and Intel [3] phases. It's only on Intel they actively made this a feature, because Windows Bootcamp probably allowed to sell them a certa…

> The only reason to believe they would change this is that the Apple Silicon architecture changes would have Apple be interested in the Mac being some sort of equivalent to an iPod Touch.

I don't see any great difference/reasons why the iPad pro is locked, and a MacBook isn't.

I hope Apple "computers" will remain unlocked, but I'm not sure I see a real business case for Apple to keep them open.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#262

Post by johnofthesea »

fsflover wrote: post #172
machello13 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I'm having trouble making the leap from this: "Apple checks which macOS applications I run in order to verify that the developers credentials are still valid and not expired/revoked, but only for macOS apps and not executables in general, and you can still open apps that are not signed with a Developer ID using a manual bypass" (which is certainly not ideal but seems like a reasonable security compromise. Ther…

I suggest you read the comments in the linked thread. Why do I have to repeat those who can explain better than me? It's pretty clear that the current state: 1) cannot be called "fully unlocked", 2) more locked than what people used to have, even on Apple devices. It might be fine for you, but it certainly is potentially bad for privacy and freedom. Look up keyword "tor" in the thread if genuinely want to understand…

But isn't it possible to turn off System Integrity Protection and Gatekeeper?

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#263

Post by e12e »

DCKing wrote: post #45
chpmrc wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple adds limitations to protect the system: "too strict!" Apple gives the chance to disable these limitations to power users: "they should be disabled by default!" Apple disables limitations: "temporary convenient oversight?" ...

It's a bad faith argument. The presupposition is that Apple is inherently motivated to actively lock things down, because that's what they do with the iPhone. This glosses over that Apple has no reason to actually do so, only has reasons not to do it on the Mac, and has gone on record saying they won't treat the Mac as the iPhone. It's based on the notion that Apple would be against free booting a priori for some rea…

> The presupposition is that Apple is inherently motivated to actively lock things down, because that's what they do with the iPhone. This glosses over that Apple has no reason to actually do so, only has reasons not to do it on the Mac, and has gone on record saying they won't treat the Mac as the iPhone.

What is the difference between an iPad pro and a MacBook? If Apple can get away with a 30% tax on all commercial software, and arbitrarily manage which applications are "allowed" - why would they not want to extend that to their laptops? If they still get people to buy and developers to develop?

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#264

Post by pkulak »

balozi wrote: post #164
pkulak wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then just pop Mac OS back on it and sell it for 80% of it's new value. Really almost no risk at all, as far as I'm concerned.

However noble, the risk I see is for untold man-hours and resources that will be expended on an ill-fated adventure. This project requires tons of positive tech-community spirit, which apple isn't exactly known for.

Fair enough. But I'd counter saying that you shouldn't try something like this unless the adventure itself appeals to you.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#265

Post by ttflee »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #216
gorkish wrote: post #204

Apple needs to give a little here. I think it's patently ridiculous that we have to enlist the assistance of console hackers in order to have a chance at porting the most used operating system in the entire world to run on hardware that in all likelihood already happily runs it inside of Apple's labs. > In particular, we will be reverse engineering the Apple GPU architecture and developing an open source driver for i…

Apple sells hardware and now services. Software seems to be a cost center. So I doubt a third party OS like Linux will ever be a priority for them in their consumer products.

Software is an essential supportive pillar which stands between its hardware and lucrative value-added services.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#266

Post by x87678r »

reikonomusha wrote: post #21

For projects like these, I don’t know why Apple doesn’t just step in and help. What have they got to lose?

What have they got to lose?

30% cut of app store, icloud, apple+ TV, Safari users, Maps users, Incremental Market Share.

Realistically lots of people could end up preferring Linux over MacOS, why risk it?

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#267

Post by pkulak »

SomeHacker44 wrote: post #177
pkulak wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mac hardware is just so damn good though. And everywhere. I absolutely agree with what you're saying... but man, Linux working well on an M1 Mac would be my ideal machine.

Every time I accidentally hit something on the touch bar, I hate that I still have a Mac. Every time I intentionally use the ESC and have to touch it two or three times, I hate the Mac. Every time I need an F key, or want to do something without looking (like change volume or hit mute), I hate the Mac. Thank goodness this year I stopped using it so much as I did not have to repair the keyboard twice and potentially g…

I've got two 2015 Mac Book pros kickin' around my house and they're amazing. Add in the M1 Air I just picked up and it looks like my perceptions are a bit colored by skipping that 4-year Mac Book dark era.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#268

Post by Nullabillity »

DCKing wrote: post #184
bsaul wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason people assume apple will prevent you from doing what you want with your computer, is because it’s the logical consequence of the strategy they’ve followed for the past 10 years over their whole product line. From phones, to cable, to messenging software. They’re into vertical integration and walled ecosystem.

Simply asserting this without evidence does not make it so. If Apple truly had this strategy they're doing a horrible job at it. Mostly since you are free to boot (or work on doing so at least) NetBSD and countless other things on practically every Mac they've ever released, including the latest ones. They're doing a horrible job at communicating this strategy too, because they're communicating the opposite. For this…

> Simply asserting this without evidence does not make it so.

Goes in both directions.

> Mostly since you are free to boot (or work on doing so at least) NetBSD and countless other things on practically every Mac they've ever released, including the latest ones.

Gatekeeper wasn't a thing either, until it was, indeed, a thing.

> They're doing a horrible job at communicating this strategy too, because they're communicating the opposite.

Surely that's the whole point of a trap?

> For this Apple Silicon phase, it seems they've also missed a huge opportunity to finally execute on this strategy by spending a little time and money to develop the tools to do the opposite of that strategy and give users a way to boot unsigned kernels.

Sure, because right now they're trying to sell the idea of M1 Macs.

> I just don't buy it, sorry. I don't even get why Apple would want to do this outside of sheer malice.

App Store, censorship, ... You could turn that around and ask why they would want to lock down their iOS devices, and why you think that those reasons wouldn't apply to Macs.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#269

Post by Nullabillity »

breakfastduck wrote: post #93
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They've plenty communicated their intention to not turn the Mac into the iPhone/iPad. Of course not, because they need to differentiate. This doesn't mean they renounce their plans to further lock down macOS. Running non-appstore apps is getting harder and harder each year.

Apart from the fact they've actively stated (repeatedly, during their main presentations) that running arbitrary code on a mac will not be changing. For a company that seems sometimes to go out of its way to not give any information on anything it doesn't make sense to clearly and concisely make that statement.

While at the same time continuously tightening the noose on Gatekeeper. I wonder why people wouldn't take their word for it...

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#270

Post by vaxman »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #216
gorkish wrote: post #204

Apple needs to give a little here. I think it's patently ridiculous that we have to enlist the assistance of console hackers in order to have a chance at porting the most used operating system in the entire world to run on hardware that in all likelihood already happily runs it inside of Apple's labs. > In particular, we will be reverse engineering the Apple GPU architecture and developing an open source driver for i…

Apple sells hardware and now services. Software seems to be a cost center. So I doubt a third party OS like Linux will ever be a priority for them in their consumer products.

This project is obviously a farce, but I would not say Apple is against Linux insofar as supporting it on the backend. Their own backends are designed for raytracing/render farms and will probably always run macOS though.
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