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Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

asahilinux.org

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Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#321
post #290

Is anyone else ever saddened when they think about the man hours spent on projects like this (reversing software or hardware to accomplish what should be a simple goal) when all it would take is the teensiest bit of cooperation to not waste all those hours? I use waste in the sense of like trying to assemble something complicated with the instructions just out of arms reach, not in the sense of doing something pointl…

It's cheaper to not make it work for anything else. While this is commonly said about PC and Windows, Microsoft actually publishes pretty clear standards that Linux even reuses, because they do not control the hw vendors. Apple has both hardware and software in one house. On one side, this means that they can escape the trap that cripples performance of competing mobile SoCs (as they don't have to deal with price com…

> It's cheaper to not make it work for anything else.

If I understand correctly, seeing the rest of the comment, your point is that it's cheaper to not have it adhere to some fixed standard.

While I fully understand this position, and think that it's actually something that can help a vertically integrated company such as Apple, I think that the situation isn't an either or.

Rather, things could be shades of grey. The way I see it, Apple could keep on doing their specific things because it's better for them. But once a given system (which can be as restrictive as a given combination of laptop size, generation and spec-level) is out to mass manufacturing, it becomes its own standard of sorts. As in each and every "late 2020 MBA 13" 8 GB RAM 256 GB SSD rev 1" or whatever are exactly the same. I suppose this has to be, since macOS has to know how to handle them.

If I'm not mistaken this is what DSDT patching was/is about in the Hackintosh community: make the hardware present a "known" interface, such as MBP 15 13,1 so that macOS knows what quirks to load.

So instead of Apple adhering to some "fixed" standard for all of their models for several years, they could just publish the "quirks" of each model.

You want to run Linux on your MBA? This is how it works. You're on your own adapting Linux to this, mind, but this is how it works. And of course, you want next year's model? Better get busy adapting again.

I think that would still be immensely better than the current situation and would help prevent the waste GP was talking about. I always concur with the claim that this would probably not lose Apple money. They don't make money any more through selling macOS itself and people looking to run Linux are probably not the biggest spenders on the mac app store either. But they could probably sell more macs.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#322
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's cheaper to not make it work for anything else. While this is commonly said about PC and Windows, Microsoft actually publishes pretty clear standards that Linux even reuses, because they do not control the hw vendors. Apple has both hardware and software in one house. On one side, this means that they can escape the trap that cripples performance of competing mobile SoCs (as they don't have to deal with price com…

> It's cheaper to not make it work for anything else. If I understand correctly, seeing the rest of the comment, your point is that it's cheaper to not have it adhere to some fixed standard. While I fully understand this position, and think that it's actually something that can help a vertically integrated company such as Apple, I think that the situation isn't an either or. Rather, things could be shades of grey. Th…

Publishing such quirks list would require tracking them better, and possibly making sure they don't reveal anything bad about your devices.

As is, they remain locked somewhere on Apple's institutional secrecy and they don't have to care except for Bootcamp as they do not officially support anything else, and just publishing a "quirk database" possibly means more support calls (not that anyone will pick them up)

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#323
post #7

Very interesting overall. > Apple allows booting unsigned/custom kernels on Apple Silicon macs without a jailbreak! This isn’t a hack or an omission, but an actual feature that Apple built into these devices. Indefinitely? How do we know it's a feature vs a temporarily convenient oversight? > Our goal is not just to make Linux run on these machines, but to polish it to the point where it can be used as a daily OS. Do…

Except for potential Anti-trust litigation, I don't see any reason for Apple to 'not lock' its M series computers from boot loader to app store in the near future as the walled garden + vertical integration has been their most successful business strategy.

One should be naive to think that the conversion to M-series wasn't done with the intention to lock the macOS platform akin to iOS.

I wouldn't be even surprised if doing so didn't attract anti-trust issues as they got away with iPhone, iPad which are not lesser computer than a PC especially since several applications are becoming 'mobile first' or even 'mobile only'; So it's ridiculous to compare smartphones, tablets to game consoles whenever this topic is brought to the discussion.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#324

Is anyone else ever saddened when they think about the man hours spent on projects like this (reversing software or hardware to accomplish what should be a simple goal) when all it would take is the teensiest bit of cooperation to not waste all those hours? I use waste in the sense of like trying to assemble something complicated with the instructions just out of arms reach, not in the sense of doing something pointl…

> teensiest bit of cooperation

Apple did put in the effort to cooperate when they added support to boot other OSes. Apple hasn’t prevented anyone from running Linux, they simply haven’t written Linux drivers for their hardware or provided a manual to do so.

Most of the effort in Asahi Linux is going to be writing drivers for hardware that hasn’t had Linux drivers written for it. It makes sense that a Linux driver doesn’t exist, because this hardware is new and no one has tried to run Linux on it before.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#325
post #290

Is anyone else ever saddened when they think about the man hours spent on projects like this (reversing software or hardware to accomplish what should be a simple goal) when all it would take is the teensiest bit of cooperation to not waste all those hours? I use waste in the sense of like trying to assemble something complicated with the instructions just out of arms reach, not in the sense of doing something pointl…

It's cheaper to not make it work for anything else. While this is commonly said about PC and Windows, Microsoft actually publishes pretty clear standards that Linux even reuses, because they do not control the hw vendors. Apple has both hardware and software in one house. On one side, this means that they can escape the trap that cripples performance of competing mobile SoCs (as they don't have to deal with price com…

> It's cheaper to not make it work for anything else.

It's done also to protect the brand, make it fancy, exclusive and costly for sure. Some fashion brands even destroys tons of wear just to not let them out with cheap price. "Walled garden" is very helpful here.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On any other apple computer I'd agree, but I really want some of that sweet ARM magic.

Just wait for SiFive and RISC-V, that's going to be the revolution I'll join :)

Don't you still have to pay to license SiFive IP?

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably those people would just not buy Apple hardware if buying into the ecosystem was a requirement. So if that number is non-zero, and Apple sells hardware above cost, then yes, Apple is better off selling only its hardware and not its services to this small subset of the market.

Thats the thing though. The hardware is so good that there are people who would run Linux on the Mac if they could, but since they can't they cave in and just run MacOS. I have an M1 and its so much better than my Linux XPS 15 that I just end up using the M1 (and getting sucked into their eco-system). And this is just their first release!

Or they could, I don't know, help Linux OEMs reach that level.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#328

A lot of time, money and effort invested to support a platform whos creator is unwilling to provide support. I think it's part of the Linux ethos to run on everything, but I also think this kind of effort is ... not wasted, but I feel like it could be spent more efficiently. Still looking forward to hear about the first successful boots and the epic reverse engineering feats. Just wish this kind of stuff wouldn't be…

Just imagine this effort being spent on improving Linux OEMs hardware offerings instead.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#329

A lot of time, money and effort invested to support a platform whos creator is unwilling to provide support. I think it's part of the Linux ethos to run on everything, but I also think this kind of effort is ... not wasted, but I feel like it could be spent more efficiently. Still looking forward to hear about the first successful boots and the epic reverse engineering feats. Just wish this kind of stuff wouldn't be…

> A lot of time, money and effort invested to support a platform whos creator is unwilling to provide support. If Linux only ran on hardware which the creator was willing to provide support, Linux would not exist. Linux was created in spite of Intel, Nvidia, AMD, etc etc. Support from the makers only came later. Linux was originally an OS created by people who wanted to do things the OEMs and commercial vendors didn'…

Let's ignore the money pumped by IBM and others.

Linux exists because POSIX subsytem on Windows never had much love, had it been OS X like and Linux would have stayed an hobby OS.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#330
post #289
post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The presupposition is that Apple is inherently motivated to actively lock things down, because that's what they do with the iPhone. This glosses over that Apple has no reason to actually do so, only has reasons not to do it on the Mac, and has gone on record saying they won't treat the Mac as the iPhone. What is the difference between an iPad pro and a MacBook? If Apple can get away with a 30% tax on all commercial…

> If they still get people to buy and developers to develop? Well they won't get away with that at all, especially not in the long run as people abandon ship to platforms that do allow free development and tinkering. Apple is still a hardware company with hardware sales making up the overwhelming majority of their profits (over 75%). It would be beyond stupid to risk that just so they can live out a control fantasy,…

Well they won't get away with that at all, especially not in the long run as people abandon ship to platforms that do allow free development and tinkering.

Before the M1 Macs shipped, Apple's Mac revenue hit an all-time high of a smidge over $9 billion [1]. During a global pandemic and economic crisis.

The Mac will be 37 years old on January 24, 2021 and yet, it continues to gain momentum, not lose it. Between 1984 and now, not a year has gone by without the same narrative: Apple is doomed if they don't change their ways…

The M1 Macs are probably selling like proverbial hotcakes—we'll find out on January 27th [2].

People seem to forget that the Mac mini, the MacBook Air and the 13-inch MacBook Pro are the entry-level, consumer oriented computers in Apple's lineup. These machines are the opening act.

And even as stunningly fast as these machines are, especially on a performance per watt basis, we haven't even seen the take-no-prisoners, kick-ass professional Apple Silicon Macs yet.

We’ll probably see Macs from Apple that don't have the space and power constraints of the current lineup. If they cranked the current SoC beyond the current 3.2 GHz, added more cores and started at 16 GB of RAM… they would capture another huge chunk of the market, including a significant number of Linux users…

[1] https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2020/10/apple-reports-fourth-...

[2] https://www.apple.com/investor/earnings-call/

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