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America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

nytimes.com

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Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#111

Post by caeril »

seppin wrote: post #85
twobitshifter wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If China can move to DCEP (Chinese state crypto) and get their borrowers to follow their lead, the US will find itself in a tough position. In the end game for China, they displace the US and can avoid the dollar in trade.

If it was that easy to displace the dollar, someone would have done it already. What advantage does a Chinese cryptocurrency have over a traditional one?

This. August 15th of this year will be FIFTIETH anniversary of Nixon telling the rest of the world that their dollars held in reserve are redeemable for precisely one bag of dicks.

If the world was ever going to de-dollarize, they would have done it at any point in the last half-century.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#112

Post by Tycho »

hangonhn wrote: post #92
Tycho wrote: post #4

At a certain point, does automation/robotics swing the manufacturing base back towards the west?

No. Because China is working on that too. This is what their Made in China 2025 initiative is all about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China_2025 "The plan aims to upgrade the manufacturing capabilities of Chinese industries, growing from labor-intensive workshops into a more technology-intensive powerhouse.[6] The goals of Made in China 2025 include increasing the Chinese-domestic content of core materials t…

But cheap labour is a sustainable advantage that the west can never rival. Everything else, we can compete on, in theory.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#113

Post by anonunivgrad »

mc32 wrote: post #106
recursivedoubts wrote: post #6

We were sold down the river by our own elites, particularly on Wall Street and with the full complicity of the Economics Departments of the west. "Comparative Advantage", something something about corn and wool, meanwhile the whole supply chain was moved to China, our middle class was decimated and we went into tremendous amounts of debt to pretend everything was fine... Left, right... whatever. The elites have faile…

Dems used to be pro labor, Repubs used to be pro business (on balance, but kind of served both when it made sense). In the ‘80s Dems saw being default pro business was more lucrative and jumped ship. Now both parties play both hands and workers get shafted. Oh but the Dems are pro workers! No, they are not. They pretend they are. The only ones who are pro worker also sold out (Bernie) and went globalist —Compare his…

Democrats distract their base with identity politics (free sex changes! defund the police! and such woke nonsense) while their wealthy supporters get rich selling the country to China.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#114

Post by cratermoon »

l3v3ll wrote: post #78
WillPostForFood wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

67.4% of Americans own a home. You don't need to be in the be in the top 10% to benefit. https://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/files/currenthvspress.pdf

I wouldn’t call ownership a benefit for the 71% of home owners with a mortgage. > Zillow’s Negative Equity 2012 Q3 data; we find 29% (20.6 million) of homeowners own their home outright https://www.zillow.com/research/free-and-clear-american-mort...

At least one Nobel prize-winning economist has noted that home ownership is not all that it's made out to be.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-10-15/the-econo...

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#115

Post by m463 »

taylodl wrote: post #108

How many countries in the world manufacture commercial airliners? How many countries in the world manufacture automobiles sold around the world (don't forget a lot of 'foreign' cars are manufactured in the United States)? How many countries in the world has a private company manufacturing re-usable rocketry capable of carrying crews to the ISS? I've been reading these scaremongering stories all my life. First it was…

What's funny to me is that people complain about US automakers losing... with no mention of Tesla at all.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#116

Post by iphorde »

glial wrote: post #98
iphorde wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, this isn't true. Most of the money in the markets are from the average Joe's 401k, or pension. Wealthy people put their wealth to work in private equity, or venture capital. I am just disgusted at how incompetent people are, and how they reiterate what they heard from CNN, Foxnews, or morons like Ron Paul. Now, Banks, and Funds manage large amounts of cash, but again, Pensions and 401k's make up the most of it.

> Most of the money in the markets are from the average Joe's 401k, or pension. Can you provide a source for that? I looked for one and couldn’t find one, but if you had one I would love to read it.

People are stupid, they're unable to do basic math.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/940498/assets-retirement...

Pensions and 401ks, etc were valued at $32 trillion.

https://siblisresearch.com/data/us-stock-market-value/

The total stock market value is only $36 trillion. Jesus people are fucking stupid.

You can calculuate the value of the market yourself btw. It is really simple.

How basic math could save everyone, but honestly, you are all that stupid. Please, keep watching CNN, and MSNBC.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#117

Post by roland_nilsson »

Well I'm no economist, but this seems inevitable if (1) consumers want cheap products and (2) production is cheaper elsewhere. Given those conditions, any company that wants to survive will have to move production abroad (and those that do not will quickly be replaced).

So if we want to keep domestic production, either consumers need to voluntarily choose more expensive alternatives -- which seems unlikely to happen -- or we have to put tariffs or other restrictions on import of goods. The EU does this for a variety of agricultural products to protect farming, for example.

Or is there another way out?

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#118

Post by MartianSquirrel »

Tycho wrote: post #53
MartianSquirrel wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but no. Automation could, should and will bring back more manufacturing towards the west, in the sense that the west will produce more goods, in terms of net quantity/value compared to today. It does not necessarily mean more jobs. It does not mean the west will produce a higher percentage of global products. Paul Krugman, amongst others, has written about the subject, I will try to link articles once I get home…

Might not mean more jobs in the west, but I suppose it will mean less jobs for the east.

No, the job market isn't zero sum. If the west produces more goods/services it needs a higher input of lesser tier goods and services to which value can be added.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#119

Post by hangonhn »

Tycho wrote: post #112
hangonhn wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Because China is working on that too. This is what their Made in China 2025 initiative is all about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China_2025 "The plan aims to upgrade the manufacturing capabilities of Chinese industries, growing from labor-intensive workshops into a more technology-intensive powerhouse.[6] The goals of Made in China 2025 include increasing the Chinese-domestic content of core materials t…

But cheap labour is a sustainable advantage that the west can never rival. Everything else, we can compete on, in theory.

It's not an advantage that China can maintain though, hence the movement upwards. China, and other countries like that, was cheap because they were underdeveloped and the goals/wants of their population were minimal. But now some of the highest home prices in the world are in Shanghai. Many of China's coastal cities have gotten wealthy and China's remaining source of cheap labor are in the interior cities, hence the development of major railways into the interior, etc. But everyone knows how that story is going to go. The interior cities will also become wealthy and then the last remaining source of cheap manual labor will dry up. Making your people wealthier and moving up the value chain are good goals but once you get there you need to switch. which is what China is preparing for.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#120

Post by m463 »

roland_nilsson wrote: post #117

Well I'm no economist, but this seems inevitable if (1) consumers want cheap products and (2) production is cheaper elsewhere. Given those conditions, any company that wants to survive will have to move production abroad (and those that do not will quickly be replaced). So if we want to keep domestic production, either consumers need to voluntarily choose more expensive alternatives -- which seems unlikely to happen…

Computer controlled manufacturing, robotics, and other forms of automation, like Elon Musk's gigafactories.

I don't know the reality of the gigafactories though:

- how many "corner cases" are handled by humans

- would it (un)scale for things with smaller production numbers?

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