America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented • Hacker News Board

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#101

Post by Mc_Big_G » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

iphorde wrote: post #52

habosa wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

84% of wealth in the stock market is in the hands of the top 10% Not sure about housing.

Yea, this isn't true. Most of the money in the markets are from the average Joe's 401k, or pension. Wealthy people put their wealth to work in private equity, or venture capital. I am just disgusted at how incompetent people are, and how they reiterate what they heard from CNN, Foxnews, or morons like Ron Paul. Now, Banks, and Funds manage large amounts of cash, but again, Pensions and 401k's make up the most of it.

>Most of the money in the markets are from the average Joe's 401k, or pension

This is just an assertion.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#102

Post by beefman » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #70

viburnum wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparative advantage never made any sense. It's a model of a world without technology, without supply chains, without increasing returns to scale, and only two countries.

You sort of had me until the last claim (no more than two countries), I know for a fact their models are more advanced than that. Any actual economist care to chime in and explain comparative advantage?

There are models with more than two countries, but no consensus on which to use. Most economists couldn't name one of these models, or anyone who has ever studied the question.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#103

Post by jhallenworld » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

recursivedoubts wrote: post #6

We were sold down the river by our own elites, particularly on Wall Street and with the full complicity of the Economics Departments of the west. "Comparative Advantage", something something about corn and wool, meanwhile the whole supply chain was moved to China, our middle class was decimated and we went into tremendous amounts of debt to pretend everything was fine... Left, right... whatever. The elites have faile…

I think this all started as some kind of national security consensus that we would help China by having free trade with them.

It worked in that millions of Chinese have been uplifted (of course this is vast oversimplification: they helped themselves and many other countries also trade with them), but has definitely failed if we ever thought to make the Chinese government less authoritarian as a side effect.

It was definitely paid for by American workers. I don't know what economists were smoking when they thought the entire blue collar workforce would be retrained into better jobs, but that's the theory they kept forwarding.

I've also heard that this has helped America by keeping inflation low. What they mean when they say "inflation" is almost always "wage inflation". You can see the mindset in the Covid relief debates- God Forbid we give people more money than the slave wages they get from corporations- they might not work! Corporations might have to pay more in wages!

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#104

Post by esoterica » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

recursivedoubts wrote: post #6

We were sold down the river by our own elites, particularly on Wall Street and with the full complicity of the Economics Departments of the west. "Comparative Advantage", something something about corn and wool, meanwhile the whole supply chain was moved to China, our middle class was decimated and we went into tremendous amounts of debt to pretend everything was fine... Left, right... whatever. The elites have faile…

Why the obsession with manufacturing jobs? Unemployment was still low (at least pre-covid) and total compensation, while not growing as fast as some people would like, is still higher than ever.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#105

Post by jl6 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 9:46 PM UTC

liminal wrote: post #13

"Made in America" is a nice slogan, but "Not Made by an Enemy" would be more apt. Made in an Ally would be fine too (Canada, Mexico, Western Europe...)

“Made using labor and environmental standards that would be illegal in this country” could work too.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#106

Post by mc32 » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

recursivedoubts wrote: post #6

We were sold down the river by our own elites, particularly on Wall Street and with the full complicity of the Economics Departments of the west. "Comparative Advantage", something something about corn and wool, meanwhile the whole supply chain was moved to China, our middle class was decimated and we went into tremendous amounts of debt to pretend everything was fine... Left, right... whatever. The elites have faile…

Dems used to be pro labor, Repubs used to be pro business (on balance, but kind of served both when it made sense).

In the ‘80s Dems saw being default pro business was more lucrative and jumped ship.

Now both parties play both hands and workers get shafted.

Oh but the Dems are pro workers! No, they are not. They pretend they are. The only ones who are pro worker also sold out (Bernie) and went globalist —Compare his positions in the 80s vs now.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#107

Post by recursivedoubts » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

formerly_proven wrote: post #95

recursivedoubts wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is at or near the top of all western countries on educational spending per student: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp

The US also has the highest spending in health care per capita. Spending does not equal outcomes.

Yes, I agree. But the comment implied neglect, which is false. Our education system is a mess, but it's not due to neglect, and it doesn't have anything to do with manufacturing being shipped abroad.

As a side note, the US has the second highest public spending per capita (second only to Norway, last I checked). Our Government spends more per citizen than all but one "socialist" country. We then of course spend another doubling of that in private expenditures, and, yes, get worse outcomes.

The US is in a very bad spot.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#108

Post by taylodl » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

How many countries in the world manufacture commercial airliners? How many countries in the world manufacture automobiles sold around the world (don't forget a lot of 'foreign' cars are manufactured in the United States)? How many countries in the world has a private company manufacturing re-usable rocketry capable of carrying crews to the ISS?

I've been reading these scaremongering stories all my life. First it was Japan eating our lunch. Where are they now? Then it was Mexico poised to take all our manufacturing. Didn't happen. Now everyone is scared about China. Pretty soon they're going to realize they don't want to be in the business of manufacturing screws, either. There's simply no money in it.

Meanwhile U.S. manufacturing has been growing. That's something the NY Times is conspicuously silent about.

I'm not saying the U.S. doesn't have social and political issues we need to get sorted out - but there's never been a time in our history that we haven't had social and political issues we need to get sorted out. I'm not saying we don't have progress to achieve. I'm saying I'm sick and tired about hearing how the U.S. no longer manufactures screws and consumer electronics. There's a bigger picture to consider.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#109

Post by anonunivgrad » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

babaganoosh89 wrote: post #48

recursivedoubts wrote: post #6

We were sold down the river by our own elites, particularly on Wall Street and with the full complicity of the Economics Departments of the west. "Comparative Advantage", something something about corn and wool, meanwhile the whole supply chain was moved to China, our middle class was decimated and we went into tremendous amounts of debt to pretend everything was fine... Left, right... whatever. The elites have faile…

The problem isn't comparative advantage, it's that the US left the poor states to languish with poor education. So instead of higher quality manufacturing / blue collar jobs, non-educated folks got minimum wage service jobs.

There are not enough "higher quality manufacturing / blue collar jobs." The US has embraced an economic model of outsourcing manufacturing and shifting to an economy based around intellectual property, finance, and other knowledge work. What's left is low-skill, low-pay service jobs, where outsourcing is not possible, but where technology is instead the threat.

And knowledge jobs are jobs for smart people. Most people are not smart enough to do those jobs and no amount of money spent on education (the US spends more than almost every other western country, at every level) can change that.

Re: America Can’t Even Produce the Things It Invented

#110

Post by mynameisash » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 9:49 PM UTC

aeternum wrote: post #19

ragebol wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what purpose is that big data stuff typically used for? Something related to serving ads.

For Tesla, collecting self-driving training data as well as general fleet data. For Square, collecting transaction data to mitigate risk so that merchants worldwide can take payments. For Uber/Lyft predicting areas where there will be people needing rides to optimize transportation needs. Plenty of real-world applications other than ads.

I used to work with a guy that liked to talk about how much porn has helped technology - primarily that the desire for privacy (in viewing and purchasing) helped drive SSL adoption. I'm sure he was being facetious, but the idea that an industry like porn or ads might drive technology that then can benefit other 'worthy' industries seems obvious to me.