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Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#731

Post by fastball »

onepointsixC wrote: post #608
threeseed wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that immediately after this become public, Apple put Wistron on probation refusing to award them any more work and requiring them to resolve the issues. Governments really need to do the heavy lifting though because apart from refusing to hand over money/work they are very limited in what they can do.

I respectfully disagree. The only heavy lifting that governments need is to hold Apple and their executives criminally responsible. Apple has shown ruthless effectiveness in tracking down leakers and prosecuting them. But making sure the workers who are making their parts and assembling their devices aren't slaves or being abused is a bridge too far for the richest company in the world? I don't believe it. It's Apple…

> hold Apple and their executives criminally responsible

What crime was committed?

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#732

Post by f6v »

TheKarateKid wrote: post #430
f6v wrote: post #331

It's cute that so many HN readers consider this accusation to be true. However I'd like to remind you that China and USA are engaged in a modern edition of Cold War. I'd argue it's naïve to think that such reports can't possibly be part of this war.

It is wreckless to compare the Chinese media -- which is controlled and censored by the CCP -- to the US media which the government has little/no control or punishment over what they publish. At worst, Western media has bias from those in the media, not the government itself.

The government may not have a direct control, but it’s naive to think they’re not used as propaganda machines.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#733

Post by noduerme »

Cyberthal wrote: post #728
dmingod666 wrote: post #721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing good starts from home. Arm your prison labor and minimum wage workers. Let us know how that goes..

I didn't say arming slaves was good. I said it was the only effective long-term solution to the problem of liberating slaves. The consensus here is anti-slavery, so I accepted that premise. The USA does permit minimum wage workers to purchase cheap pistols, which is probably why its police aren't brave enough to lock them down. Sometimes those workers even upset a predetermined election. I do not support prisons. On…

Doing time in Scandinavia amounts to living for free in a socialist utopia. You call working in the US "indentured servitude"? Really? If so, it's a very nice kind of slavery, where lots of us can buy houses and many idiots have the time to stand in line for a PS5. If you took away the societal whim to buy the latest shoes / rims / playstations (which I think is temporary and only based on cheap credit) then you have a massively productive economy and still one of the highest living standards in the world. In spite of the obvious inequalities. The answer isn't to tear down the system, it's to get better education to more people so they stop trying to tear down the system, and start trying to make the system work better for them.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#734

Post by spoopyskelly »

Cyph0n wrote: post #522
thepasswordis wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The absolute most egregious example of this (imo) is Colin Kaepernick. He is literally paid by slavers . He is a multi-millionaire off of the profits of slave labor. It's disgusting that Nike is somehow putting forth a "woke" face while literally using slaves to build their products . Slavery is not woke. And Colin Kaepernick is a particular sort of disgusting that he is happy to accept millions of dollars from slave…

Sounds like the kneeling really got to some people!

Sounds like the hypocrisy got to some people!

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#735

Post by beaunative »

corty wrote: post #442
beaunative wrote: post #293

Forced labor is quite prevalent as state-sactioned punishment, and it is much better than other kinds of punishment that exist. I don't have problem with that, that's one way how legal system pays for itself rather than siphoning fund from tax-payers' money. The difficult part for me was how opaque the process is, how the Chinese government just put people in those "camps" without due process. It is worrisome and fra…

"Due process" did probably happen, at least the Chinese version of it. Even dictatorial regimes usually have to maintain some appearance of legitimacy for the things they do. That legitimacy might not be apparent or even visible for outsiders, because it is targeted to keep a sufficient majority of citizens at bay. And before you say "but 'due process' is well-defined anywhere", I've got a star chamber in Guantanamo…

Well, if this due process means some opaque process that government employs to put people in those "camps" then by literal meaning there is a process, and it's done through that process.

Yet I'd say that's very different from due process that we'd like to call it. In the very least the process itself should be well-documented and published, even if specific cases files are not available online for everyone. That's the very reason why the government called it re-education camps, because the government, even in Chinese context, should only act in the framework that laws defined, and in this case, they are not.

I suspect that the Chinese government and the local Xinjiiang government expected criticism, and they are well-aware the policy is not ideal or just, and that's why they wouldn'put it into laws, because they are well-aware it would be impossible to pass. Since they can't identify who's terrorist, they round up every likely target, and put them under surveiliance just for caution. It should be said it was effective in achiving their goal, and they are aware of the collateral damage, but it's the cost they think they can afford.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#736

Post by fsflover »

simonh wrote: post #575
fsflover wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but there’s nothing that will brick them You simply should not use a smartphone without security updates. It's as good as a brick in this case. (Or maybe never use Internet and Bluetooth on it).

So which OS or phone are you going to go with? Google only guarantees 3 years of support. Fairphone 2’s last OS update was 14 months ago, there’s no way that’s up to date with security issues so their track record is looking pretty dicey. After all they’re dependent on Google as well. Even if they do eventually get another update there’s no way a 14 month gap between security patches is acceptable. Fairphone only act…

Did you actually read my replies above? I quote myself:

Librem 5 GNU/Linux phone has a lifetime support with updates.

The operating system is PureOS (Debian derivative). All necessary patches are upstreamed.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#737

Post by fsflover »

simonh wrote: post #533
fsflover wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but iPhones have the longest average device lifetimes in the industry by a long way After iPhones are not supported anymore they turn into bricks. This typically happens in 5 years, which is not too bad, but it's far from being perfect. Why should a smartphone be supported for much shorter than laptops? Remember: reduce, reuse, recycle , in this order. Librem 5 GNU/Linux phone has a lifetime support with updates.

> After iPhones are not supported anymore they turn into bricks. Where on Earth do you get that from? My iPhone 3GS could still connect to the App Store after 7 years. My wife’s iPhone 6 from 2014 just got a patch in November. Look, I’m not going to assume bad faith, maybe you really believe this or thought it seemed true to you. When your preconceptions turn out to be this dramatically contrary to the actual facts,…

> Where on Earth do you get that from?

First link in DDG: https://www.statista.com/chart/5824/ios-iphone-compatibility...

> My iPhone 3GS could still connect to the App Store after 7 years.

Connection to App Store does not mean it's actually supported with patches or secure to use. I would call it "a brick".

> My wife’s iPhone 6 from 2014 just got a patch in November.

But the new OS is not going to be installed anymore (according to the link above). Any technical reasons for that, apart from the planned obsolescence?

> Look, I’m not going to assume bad faith, maybe you really believe this or thought it seemed true to you. When your preconceptions turn out to be this dramatically contrary to the actual facts, I seriously suggest you take a look at what it is about those preconceptions that is leading you so far away from reality.

Thank you, I am also assuming good faith and so could you please provide evidence for your claims? For how long do security updates typically come and for how long the OS is updated to new versions? Anecdotes are not enough on HN.

> industry leading device support and lifetimes

In the industry of planned obsolescence 5 years support becomes a gold standard praised by fanboys. But in reality it is very short and leads to nature pollution. I see no reason not to support devices forever or let the community support them when they are too old. Apple does neither of those.

> things that are so clearly wrong and we easily disproved?

Your words are very strong yet you give no (reliable) disprove.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#738

Post by baybal2 »

fedreserved wrote: post #727
philwelch wrote: post #702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t really scale. Minerals are where they are in the earth’s crust, and at some point we need to go to DR Congo if we want enough cobalt to go around. Especially if we want stuff like electric cars. And that’s just one example of one mineral. There is the notion of the “resource curse” —countries rich in natural resources often stay poor because why develop a modern economy when you can just become a warlord…

Where's the cia when you need them to topple a dictator who oppresses with slave labor

You usually cannot "topple" a rogue regime, unlike a civil government.

Dictators almost always have secret police, and domestic espionage agencies in every corner.

This is why I do not subscribe to notion that Western spies are trying to stage revolutions in repressive regimes for a simple reason that they can not.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#739

Post by esarbe »

onethought wrote: post #645
esarbe wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, well... I think the U.S. has some massive problems, but that's on another page and although I'd love to talk about these problems, let's stick with China for now. That a big enough pig.

Yes, my house is on fire, and that's a big issue that should be addressed, but check out the big fire across the road. Let's focus on that one. (As someone who does not live in the US, it's hard to take the consistent negativity on China and the wilful ignorance on US domestic issues seriously, without just seeing it as propaganda...)

Since I don't live in the U.S. either, I don't see why we should include the U.S. in this discussion. I'll happily comment about the prison-industrial-complex or legalized corruption or about the dangers of militarized police... if it is the topic at hand.

The issue at hand is how China and Apple are profiting from slave labor, how much this is by design or by neglect and what to do about it.

Let's keep the discussion limited to that.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#740

Post by mgh2 »

philwelch wrote: post #694
legulere wrote: post #513

As long as companies Apple are not legally responsible for their supply chain in front of developed countries’ courts nothing will change. In Switzerland a law that would have changed this was recently rejected. Hopefully another country makes the first step.

I’d really be curious to see how far we could push this. Cobalt is an essential part of lithium-ion batteries. 70% of the world’s cobalt is mined in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, much of it in forced conditions. So I guess we have three options: go without lithium-ion batteries, enforce a minimum standard of labor conditions in the DRC by any means necessary, or just try not to think about it too much. Is it…

Again, I don’t think people understand the difference here and are trying to derail the argument in favour of Apple.

Being “forced to seek employment out of poverty” is different than being forced to labor due to your ethnic background. Necessity vs. discrimination.

Ex: https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/global-devel...

It is a very simple and clear difference, yet it is a common tactic for a debater to change the narrative and manipulate the argument away to prove some other point.

Honestly, you remind me of “Thank you for smoking”. I will not be surprised if this is how lobbying or CCP’s campaigns work.

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