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Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#571

Post by arentyouspecial »

Alupis wrote: post #566
darig wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA still allows prison slave labor, so good luck with that. Examples: [1] Whole Foods – This organic supermarket buys artisan cheeses and fishes from companies that employ inmates. McDonald’s – Certain McDonald store items such as cutlery and containers were made in prison. Prisoners also sew their employee uniforms, and they only make a few cents an hour from it. Target – Since the early 2000s, Target has relie…

There is a big difference between slave/forced labor and paying for cheap labor. Majority of your examples state something along the lines of "paying inmates peanuts to make expensive things"... which literally is not the definition of slave labor. The article is about literal Chinese Slave Labor camps. There is no comparison with any of the things in your list. Most people would also agree, providing a purpose - job…

Oh yeah, these companies are totally doing this for the public good and not just simply exploiting cheap labor. And considering how hard it is for an ex con to get a job, I doubt this has any major impact on recidivism.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#572

Post by Alupis »

mike_h wrote: post #570
Alupis wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a big difference between slave/forced labor and paying for cheap labor. Majority of your examples state something along the lines of "paying inmates peanuts to make expensive things"... which literally is not the definition of slave labor. The article is about literal Chinese Slave Labor camps. There is no comparison with any of the things in your list. Most people would also agree, providing a purpose - job…

“The article is about literal Chinese Slave Labor camps” Actually it’s not... did you read it? The central allegation is that a few thousand Xinjiang Muslims were offered employment possibly in exchange for political indoctrination. There’s a side allegation that prisoners are also being put to work in factories. There’s no allegation let alone evidence that this is without compensation. And the pennies offered in US…

> “The article is about literal Chinese Slave Labor camps”

> > Actually it’s not... did you read it?

Yes, but apparently you did not. Here's the quote:

> Xinjiang, in the far reaches of Western China bordering Afghanistan, Pakistan and other Muslim-majority countries, is facing a brutal crackdown by China’s government, which has placed more than a million Muslims in concentration camps or forced them to work in factories making everything from cotton to soft drinks to electronics.

Trying to spin this off as some sort of voluntary job thing is extremely disingenuous. Almost as disingenuous as trying to spin paid prison labor in the US as slave labor.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#573

Post by ardy42 »

throw_m239339 wrote: post #251
mrweasel wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don’t understand is why companies want to be associated with these suppliers. Honestly the cost difference can’t be that big. Also why isn’t it news? It feels like something that should have journalists camping outside Tim Cooks office. While I question his motives, it’s kinda weird that Trump of all people seems to be the only one who is openly critical of China.

> What I don’t understand is why companies want to be associated with these suppliers. Honestly the cost difference can’t be that big. because ultimately the great majority of their customers do not care, as simple as that. They might care about local issues, wedge issues, but ethical and moral concerns in another country? not so much. Big luxury brands such as Apple pour billions in PR and marketing because they liv…

> because ultimately the great majority of their customers do not care, as simple as that. They might care about local issues, wedge issues, but ethical and moral concerns in another country? not so much. Big luxury brands such as Apple pour billions in PR and marketing because they live or die by the reputation. The day their customers start caring more about it, things might change.

It's worth noting that one of the main reasons consumers "don't care" is the market is structured in a way to literally numb them to these issues. It makes it difficult to even learn about these issues (in relation to particular products), have that knowledge when making a purchasing decision, and take action against it (all competitors may be doing the same thing). The PR you mentioned also plays a part.

To give an slightly different example: Xinjiang produces a lot of cotton, and, IIRC, some of it is produced through forced labor. How am I supposed to show I care by avoiding that cotton? I can't, because it's pretty much impossible for me to know if a particular shirt I'm buying is made from that cotton or not, and it might actually be impossible for anyone to know without a very expensive and time consuming investigation.

If Apple put up big signs in it's stores saying "iPhones are made with forced labor," with compelling product storytelling about the forced labor practices involved, I think you'd Apple's sales drop as consumers show they do care. But that's not going to happen, all the market incentives are to obscure that kind of information.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#574

Post by Alupis »

arentyouspecial wrote: post #571
Alupis wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a big difference between slave/forced labor and paying for cheap labor. Majority of your examples state something along the lines of "paying inmates peanuts to make expensive things"... which literally is not the definition of slave labor. The article is about literal Chinese Slave Labor camps. There is no comparison with any of the things in your list. Most people would also agree, providing a purpose - job…

Oh yeah, these companies are totally doing this for the public good and not just simply exploiting cheap labor. And considering how hard it is for an ex con to get a job, I doubt this has any major impact on recidivism.

That is a debate worth having - but calling cheaply paid prison labor "Slave Labor", or equivocating it to Chinese Forced Labor Camps is disingenuous and dishonest.

They are flatly not the same, even if you believe it's debatably exploitive.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#575

Post by simonh »

fsflover wrote: post #538
simonh wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After iPhones are not supported anymore they turn into bricks. Where on Earth do you get that from? My iPhone 3GS could still connect to the App Store after 7 years. My wife’s iPhone 6 from 2014 just got a patch in November. Look, I’m not going to assume bad faith, maybe you really believe this or thought it seemed true to you. When your preconceptions turn out to be this dramatically contrary to the actual facts,…

> but there’s nothing that will brick them You simply should not use a smartphone without security updates. It's as good as a brick in this case. (Or maybe never use Internet and Bluetooth on it).

So which OS or phone are you going to go with? Google only guarantees 3 years of support. Fairphone 2’s last OS update was 14 months ago, there’s no way that’s up to date with security issues so their track record is looking pretty dicey. After all they’re dependent on Google as well. Even if they do eventually get another update there’s no way a 14 month gap between security patches is acceptable. Fairphone only actually guarantee 2 years of support anyway.

So what phone do you use that can beat the iPhone 6 with 6 years of regular patches?

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#576

Post by mike_h »

mgh2 wrote: post #564
darig wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA still allows prison slave labor, so good luck with that. Examples: [1] Whole Foods – This organic supermarket buys artisan cheeses and fishes from companies that employ inmates. McDonald’s – Certain McDonald store items such as cutlery and containers were made in prison. Prisoners also sew their employee uniforms, and they only make a few cents an hour from it. Target – Since the early 2000s, Target has relie…

I am surprised by today's lack of ethics discernment - there is big a difference. Prison labor is compensating for crimes committed against society and other people, while uyghur labor is direct discrimination against an entire minority without probable cause. If they happen to commit terrorism, then yes, those specific individuals' forced labor is justified as debt, but right now they are just labeled as "enemies of…

Your argument assumes the non-Chinese justice system in question is actually just in its enforcement of the laws and fair in its sentencing.

If that system is the US, we can question those assumptions along a few lines:

- racial bias in enforcement and sentencing - inhumane prison terms in general - unjust laws e.g. the war on drugs - the failure of the society to provide entire classes of people with sufficient non-criminal routes out of poverty and despair

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#577

Post by BigJono »

mgh2 wrote: post #564
darig wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA still allows prison slave labor, so good luck with that. Examples: [1] Whole Foods – This organic supermarket buys artisan cheeses and fishes from companies that employ inmates. McDonald’s – Certain McDonald store items such as cutlery and containers were made in prison. Prisoners also sew their employee uniforms, and they only make a few cents an hour from it. Target – Since the early 2000s, Target has relie…

I am surprised by today's lack of ethics discernment - there is big a difference. Prison labor is compensating for crimes committed against society and other people, while uyghur labor is direct discrimination against an entire minority without probable cause. If they happen to commit terrorism, then yes, those specific individuals' forced labor is justified as debt, but right now they are just labeled as "enemies of…

How does some private company getting labor for 10c an hour benefit anyone but them? It's "compensating" for jack shit. You might have a point if they had to pay minimum wage for each employee to the government to be used on social services.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#578

Post by mike_h »

Alupis wrote: post #572
mike_h wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“The article is about literal Chinese Slave Labor camps” Actually it’s not... did you read it? The central allegation is that a few thousand Xinjiang Muslims were offered employment possibly in exchange for political indoctrination. There’s a side allegation that prisoners are also being put to work in factories. There’s no allegation let alone evidence that this is without compensation. And the pennies offered in US…

> “The article is about literal Chinese Slave Labor camps” > > Actually it’s not... did you read it? Yes, but apparently you did not. Here's the quote: > Xinjiang, in the far reaches of Western China bordering Afghanistan, Pakistan and other Muslim-majority countries, is facing a brutal crackdown by China’s government, which has placed more than a million Muslims in concentration camps or forced them to work in facto…

That’s side-allegation, not what this article is about.

And it’s a debatable one.

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#579

Post by arentyouspecial »

Alupis wrote: post #574
arentyouspecial wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yeah, these companies are totally doing this for the public good and not just simply exploiting cheap labor. And considering how hard it is for an ex con to get a job, I doubt this has any major impact on recidivism.

That is a debate worth having - but calling cheaply paid prison labor "Slave Labor", or equivocating it to Chinese Forced Labor Camps is disingenuous and dishonest. They are flatly not the same, even if you believe it's debatably exploitive.

Considering the rise of convict leasing programs across the south after the passing of the 13th amendment, I’d say there was very little difference.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convict_leasing

Re: Apple’s longtime supplier accused of using forced labor in China

#580

Post by Alupis »

mike_h wrote: post #576
mgh2 wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am surprised by today's lack of ethics discernment - there is big a difference. Prison labor is compensating for crimes committed against society and other people, while uyghur labor is direct discrimination against an entire minority without probable cause. If they happen to commit terrorism, then yes, those specific individuals' forced labor is justified as debt, but right now they are just labeled as "enemies of…

Your argument assumes the non-Chinese justice system in question is actually just in its enforcement of the laws and fair in its sentencing. If that system is the US, we can question those assumptions along a few lines: - racial bias in enforcement and sentencing - inhumane prison terms in general - unjust laws e.g. the war on drugs - the failure of the society to provide entire classes of people with sufficient non-…

What does any of this have to do with the Chinese Communist Party literally forcing slaves to pick cotton[1][2][3]?

You bring up issues with the US Justice System, and then use that as an excuse to blanket over everything the CCP does? How does that work, exactly?

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/china-cotton-forced-labour/c...

[2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china/u-s-bans-...

[3] https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/china-s-forced-labor-cotton-ma...

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