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Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

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Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#121

Post by bsanr2 »

OptionX wrote: post #90
throwaway535 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not clear that reparations are a good idea in practice, or something to be "achieved," or even strived for (they might do more harm in practice to the group they intend to protect, This is a very patronizing argument. If someone breaks into your bank account and steals your cash, then later is caught. There is no valid line of reasoning that goes "well I'll only give the money back if you tell me how you plan…

Well, by your own analogy. If both you and the robber have been dead for 300+ years would it make sense to make the robbers family pay your descendants for it? Keep in mind none of the people had contact with anyone remotely involved with the original robbery or had any way to influence it or impact it. Should the sons pay for the sins of the fathers? Pretty sure I could find someone in your ancestral line that commi…

1) Slavery ended 150 years ago, not 300.

2) Second and third-generation descendents of slaves are still alive. In other words, people who conceivably would have benefited directly from their grandparents or great-grandparents receiving substantial reparations.

3) Reparations have been called for for more recent attacks on Black American rights and economic wellbeing; discriminatory and destructive public policy that dates back decades but that also goes up to, at least, the predatory lending practices backed by the government in the run-up to the 2008 financial crisis, which saw black-owned wealth in America cut in half.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#122

Post by ericb »

throwaway535 wrote: post #109
OptionX wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, by your own analogy. If both you and the robber have been dead for 300+ years would it make sense to make the robbers family pay your descendants for it? Keep in mind none of the people had contact with anyone remotely involved with the original robbery or had any way to influence it or impact it. Should the sons pay for the sins of the fathers? Pretty sure I could find someone in your ancestral line that commi…

Great discussion, let's continue. So my dad goes and steals your dad's land. He give me the land as his son. I split it in half and give half to a friend of mine. The investigation occurs and determine this land was stolen and should be returned. I don't think the argument of, "sorry won't return it because I didn't steal it, my dad did" holds much water. Nor the argument of, "nope I won't return it because a friend…

Sure, except randomly distribute the goods, and then forcefully extract payback from many who were never involved, and many who fought to prevent the theft, and now you're getting closer.

Will there later be reparations for the reparations taken now from uninvolved parties since the point of reparations is that stealing labor and wealth is wrong and must be corrected via payment in later generations? If we take from them we're perpetuating the same sort of theft? I agree if we were omniscient it would be "right," but we're far far from that.

Also, let's say there's a reparation payment, but it doesn't rectify inequality, because there are more systemic problems at play, like local tax revenue funding local schools, so poor towns have poor schools. After "reparations," you don't think voters will think "we paid reparations, stop complaining."

If the purpose is "righting a wrong" I think the tool is too blunt and will create many more wrongs.

If the purpose is to "fix inequality", I think it won't address the underlying structural problems, but will "check the box" and absolve responsibilities.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#123

Post by chordalkeyboard »

01100011 wrote: post #34
iaHN wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a pervasive fear that admitting that the US owes the descendants of slaves something could potentially validate the complaints black people have about other issues in America. See the posts about Timnit Gebru for comments depicting the demands of black people as "too disruptive".

Really? I think the resistance to reparations comes from folks like me who don't see a reason we should pay anything. Most of my ancestors are German immigrants to the northeast US who arrived after slavery was abolished. The remainder were poor Scotts Irish who continued to live in poverty in northern Appalachia. I understand, but do not agree with, the logical hoops many jump through to justify indebtedness to all…

> I think the resistance to reparations comes from folks like me who don't see a reason we should pay anything.

I agree that individual Americans shouldn't have to pay anything. All former slaveowners are long dead. These claims are properly levied against the government and whatever other institutions still exist (universities and corporations come to mind).

> I also do not think direct reparations are the best approach to resolving the continuing racism in America.

You'll be relieved to learn that there are proposals for reparations that do not ask for payments to individuals.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#124

Post by chordalkeyboard »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #74
tunesmith wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty similar to the arguments of why you should not have to pay part of your taxes because you don't agree with part of how it's spent. It might not have been "your" fault, but we all live in a society that bears the fault.

Do you accept fault for the atrocities committed to Native Americans? Why aren’t you paying them reparations, too? And while we are at it, what about the descendants of the Japanese Americans who were imprisoned during World War 2 in Colorado and other states? What about the children who worked in sweat shops and coal mines during the 19th and early 20th centuries, many of whom died young? Their relatives should be c…

> I can go on and on and our country will be bankrupt before we’re done.

Isn't that a shame, well at least we could then hold our heads high.

> But hey, at least you’ve taken responsibility for the actions of others.

The title is encumbered. For the same reason that laundering money doesn't make the original theft disappear, its not ethical or moral to benefit financially from atrocities then launder the money and pretend that nothing can be done.

Are you really so sure that once the ill-gotten gains are subtracted from this country's wealth there would be nothing left? In that case how could you ignore such widespread and lucrative immoral heritage?

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#125

Post by chordalkeyboard »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #117
tunesmith wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's this old scene in the Simpsons where Grampa Simpson stands up and says, "Sure, we COULD fix up main street," and everyone in the town hall meeting cheers, and he says, "shut up! I'm just saying we COULD blow all our money on a stupid little street," and the townspeople cheer again and lift him on their shoulders. Anyway, your comment reminded me of that. I'm less familiar with lead in water. If that was just…

Thanks for the funny reply. Good to laugh. Lead pipes and lead-based solder is just one example and if you don’t like that example because it happened due to “lack of science”, I can come up with others. My point is that there are countless atrocities in America’s past, recent and not so recent. How can we compensate everyone who deserves it and how can we prioritize one group (e.g. descendants of slaves) over anothe…

> How can we compensate everyone who deserves it and how can we prioritize one group (e.g. descendants of slaves) over another (e.g. descendants of Native American civilians who were slaughtered at one of the many massacres)?

you're looking at this backwards. They both have claims pending. We can pay both of them if we choose to.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#126

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

chordalkeyboard wrote: post #125
TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the funny reply. Good to laugh. Lead pipes and lead-based solder is just one example and if you don’t like that example because it happened due to “lack of science”, I can come up with others. My point is that there are countless atrocities in America’s past, recent and not so recent. How can we compensate everyone who deserves it and how can we prioritize one group (e.g. descendants of slaves) over anothe…

> How can we compensate everyone who deserves it and how can we prioritize one group (e.g. descendants of slaves) over another (e.g. descendants of Native American civilians who were slaughtered at one of the many massacres)? you're looking at this backwards. They both have claims pending. We can pay both of them if we choose to.

As soon as those claims are paid, the floodgates will open and you can’t say “no” to others when you’ve said “yes” to the first because... racism.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#127

Post by billfruit »

elliekelly wrote: post #44
jazzyjackson wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to use etymonline.com to find how a word has been used over time, for "spare" I find "sense of "lacking in substance; lean, gaunt; flimsy, thin; poor," is recorded from 1540" etymonline.com/word/spare

Thanks! That makes a lot more sense. I was thinking “spare” as in “extra” and I thought it was odd a slave would be overweight.

Spare also means bare, lean, etc.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#128

Post by chordalkeyboard »

xyzzyz wrote: post #87
rayiner wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I understand, but do not agree with, the logical hoops many jump through to justify indebtedness to all current Americans. I also do not think direct reparations are the best approach to resolving the continuing racism in America. There's no "logical hoops." It's a concrete and straightforward argument. Black and Native Americans are differently situated in a way that shows up starkly in the data: https://academic.…

> The United States, an entity that is legally distinct from its people, was culpable for enabling slavery and segregation. It can be held liable and forced to pay for its part. Ignoring for a while a bunch of practical (though probably solvable to a large degree) problems with this, like on what basis exactly we decide who is paid, and how much are the damages exactly, a more interesting question to me is: what's ne…

> what's next? Does this settle the claim completely?

That would be the idea, yes.

> Do we consider the descendants of slaves, who get this settlement, to be made whole, and any further claims of the descendants of slaves are to be dismissed with prejudice?

It would depend on the specifics of the settlement, this is actually seriously discussed among reparations advocates. Its not all about writing checks to individuals. People want to put money in a fund that makes small business loans to qualified individuals.

> Are we supposed to no longer give any racial preferences and special treatment (beyond ensuring equal treatment that's a right of all American people regardless of their ancestry) to the descendants of slaves, given that any of their claims are settled in full?

That would do a lot to put an end to the racial animus in this country.

> And finally, what do we do if the settlement does not close the gap completely? Are we then allowed to throw up our hands in the air, and say that the United States has settled its claims, and is not obligated to entertain any new ones beyond ensuring that those of actual unequal treatment are properly litigated?

I'm not sure anyone is obligated to do anything but these questions will need to be addressed and conclusive answers may elude us but the existence of these questions doesn't invalidate the claim.

> My opinion here is that while settling the liability might look desirable from certain moral point of view, I sincerely doubt that it will bring a long term resolution of the problem attributed to the legacy of slavery. What I expect is that once settlement is paid up, everything about the issue will soon go back to exactly where it has been. This is not an argument against doing such settlement, but rather against high hopes for any positive long lasting change it is purported to bring about.

This is a good point and it may depend on the form of the settlement.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#129

Post by chordalkeyboard »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #126
chordalkeyboard wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can we compensate everyone who deserves it and how can we prioritize one group (e.g. descendants of slaves) over another (e.g. descendants of Native American civilians who were slaughtered at one of the many massacres)? you're looking at this backwards. They both have claims pending. We can pay both of them if we choose to.

As soon as those claims are paid, the floodgates will open and you can’t say “no” to others when you’ve said “yes” to the first because... racism.

> As soon as those claims are paid, the floodgates will open and you can’t say “no” to others when you’ve said “yes” to the first

"yes we can" -US President Barack Obama

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#130

Post by emmelaich »

maxerickson wrote: post #42
mfcl wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Subsidized home ownership? Don't tell Thomas Sowell that idea. How would that work? You make it easier for people to own, then the prices increase. Do you subsidize more? If so, then it's just 2008 again.

It can be done indirectly. Fund infrastructure that is needed for housing starts, do other things to remove obstacles to housing starts, etc.

Probably would not end well.

https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/collins-v-mnuchi...

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