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Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

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Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#81

Post by [deleted] »

D895n9o33436N42 wrote: post #54
smt88 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: my parents are immigrants, and I have absolutely no genealogical connection to American slavery. > having a well founded number for what the cost of reparations should be I just don't understand how someone can talk about a "well-founded number" for reparations in a serious way. How can you calculate a dollar amount, even within 5 orders of magnitude, for something that happened to millions of people for…

I’m an immigrant, and I’ll never stand for any kind of reparations for descendants of former slaves. Invariably this will come out of tax dollars to which I’m contributing by way of income tax. Why should I be charged for wrongs - however horrible - in which neither myself nor my ancestors were involved? When there was still slavery in America, my people were enslaving members of their own ethnic group back in the ol…

[deleted]

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#82

Post by xyzzyz »

tasogare wrote: post #77
rayiner wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black Americans typically have deeper roots in the United States than white Americans: https://news.gallup.com/poll/4621/majority-americans-identif... > Black Americans are more likely than either whites or Hispanics to be the third generation Americans. Seventy-five percent of black Americans indicate they are at least the third generation born in the United States, compared to 58% of whites and 13% of Hispanics.

Those numbers are very hard to believe. I bet most if not 100% Hispanics have American ancestry going back before pre-Colombian times while literally 0% of White and Black have such roots.

The meaning of "American ancestry" used above is "United States ancestry", not "North-or-South-American continent ancestry". Hispanic Americans certainly have plenty of deep American ancestry in the latter sense, but for relatively few of them this American ancestry is from United States.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#83

Post by throwaway535 »

NinjaSaves wrote: post #43
seph-reed wrote: post #2

This seems like an absolutely indispensable technology for achieving reparations. Most black Americans have ancestors who (slavery) worked a lot of unpaid hours. Having clear metrics on how many slaves there were is a step towards having a well founded number for what the cost of reparations should be. There are some places in the US which have started, but they're just kind of pulling numbers out of a hat and I don'…

"Achieving reparations" is difficult language for me to accept. It is "thinking past the sale" that does not treat the subject with the necessary fair-minded big picture consideration. It's not clear that reparations are a good idea in practice, or something to be "achieved," or even strived for (they might do more harm in practice to the group they intend to protect, as many well-intentioned and politically extremis…

> It's not clear that reparations are a good idea in practice, or something to be "achieved," or even strived for (they might do more harm in practice to the group they intend to protect,

This is a very patronizing argument. If someone breaks into your bank account and steals your cash, then later is caught. There is no valid line of reasoning that goes "well I'll only give the money back if you tell me how you plan to spend it first". "Oh, you planned to spend it all on bubble gum and sweets? Then no I don't need to give it back, because I think that might do you more harm than good."

Argue on the merits of the topic, not based on knowing what's best for people.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#84

Post by tunesmith »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #74
tunesmith wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty similar to the arguments of why you should not have to pay part of your taxes because you don't agree with part of how it's spent. It might not have been "your" fault, but we all live in a society that bears the fault.

Do you accept fault for the atrocities committed to Native Americans? Why aren’t you paying them reparations, too? And while we are at it, what about the descendants of the Japanese Americans who were imprisoned during World War 2 in Colorado and other states? What about the children who worked in sweat shops and coal mines during the 19th and early 20th centuries, many of whom died young? Their relatives should be c…

There's this old scene in the Simpsons where Grampa Simpson stands up and says, "Sure, we COULD fix up main street," and everyone in the town hall meeting cheers, and he says, "shut up! I'm just saying we COULD blow all our money on a stupid little street," and the townspeople cheer again and lift him on their shoulders.

Anyway, your comment reminded me of that.

I'm less familiar with lead in water. If that was just lack of science knowledge, that's different than, say, deliberately putting lead in water to make it easier to profit off the people drinking it.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#85

Post by tomcam »

godmode2019 wrote: post #48

I have a pretty good idea, its about investing in Africa. America has a lot of assets, in the black population, they should encourage people to visit their homeland, on a paid trip. Helping the African economy and helping African Americans create business connects to Africa. Then there should be a programme where African Americans get a lump sum, if they start a business or invest in land in Africa. France is doing s…

> Thoughts?

Sure—why not set an example by starting your own fund?

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#86

Post by tptacek »

01100011 wrote: post #34
iaHN wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a pervasive fear that admitting that the US owes the descendants of slaves something could potentially validate the complaints black people have about other issues in America. See the posts about Timnit Gebru for comments depicting the demands of black people as "too disruptive".

Really? I think the resistance to reparations comes from folks like me who don't see a reason we should pay anything. Most of my ancestors are German immigrants to the northeast US who arrived after slavery was abolished. The remainder were poor Scotts Irish who continued to live in poverty in northern Appalachia. I understand, but do not agree with, the logical hoops many jump through to justify indebtedness to all…

Did they arrive after redlining ended, early in the 1970s?

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#87

Post by xyzzyz »

rayiner wrote: post #78
01100011 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? I think the resistance to reparations comes from folks like me who don't see a reason we should pay anything. Most of my ancestors are German immigrants to the northeast US who arrived after slavery was abolished. The remainder were poor Scotts Irish who continued to live in poverty in northern Appalachia. I understand, but do not agree with, the logical hoops many jump through to justify indebtedness to all…

> I understand, but do not agree with, the logical hoops many jump through to justify indebtedness to all current Americans. I also do not think direct reparations are the best approach to resolving the continuing racism in America. There's no "logical hoops." It's a concrete and straightforward argument. Black and Native Americans are differently situated in a way that shows up starkly in the data: https://academic.…

> The United States, an entity that is legally distinct from its people, was culpable for enabling slavery and segregation. It can be held liable and forced to pay for its part.

Ignoring for a while a bunch of practical (though probably solvable to a large degree) problems with this, like on what basis exactly we decide who is paid, and how much are the damages exactly, a more interesting question to me is: what's next? Does this settle the claim completely? Do we consider the descendants of slaves, who get this settlement, to be made whole, and any further claims of the descendants of slaves are to be dismissed with prejudice? Are we supposed to no longer give any racial preferences and special treatment (beyond ensuring equal treatment that's a right of all American people regardless of their ancestry) to the descendants of slaves, given that any of their claims are settled in full? And finally, what do we do if the settlement does not close the gap completely? Are we then allowed to throw up our hands in the air, and say that the United States has settled its claims, and is not obligated to entertain any new ones beyond ensuring that those of actual unequal treatment are properly litigated?

My opinion here is that while settling the liability might look desirable from certain moral point of view, I sincerely doubt that it will bring a long term resolution of the problem attributed to the legacy of slavery. What I expect is that once settlement is paid up, everything about the issue will soon go back to exactly where it has been. This is not an argument against doing such settlement, but rather against high hopes for any positive long lasting change it is purported to bring about.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#88

Post by chordalkeyboard »

D895n9o33436N42 wrote: post #54
smt88 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: my parents are immigrants, and I have absolutely no genealogical connection to American slavery. > having a well founded number for what the cost of reparations should be I just don't understand how someone can talk about a "well-founded number" for reparations in a serious way. How can you calculate a dollar amount, even within 5 orders of magnitude, for something that happened to millions of people for…

I’m an immigrant, and I’ll never stand for any kind of reparations for descendants of former slaves. Invariably this will come out of tax dollars to which I’m contributing by way of income tax. Why should I be charged for wrongs - however horrible - in which neither myself nor my ancestors were involved? When there was still slavery in America, my people were enslaving members of their own ethnic group back in the ol…

> Invariably this will come out of tax dollars to which I’m contributing by way of income tax.

This is no different than paying taxes for any number of other social programs, however its a singularly bad place to draw the line.

> Why should I be charged for wrongs - however horrible - in which neither myself nor my ancestors were involved?

Because you aren't being charged. The government that legalized and regulated slavery is being charged. This government is (one of) the legal institutions that permitted slavery and benefitted from slavery that still exists. Therefore they are responsible for satisfying legal claims that are still pending.

> When there was still slavery in America, my people were enslaving members of their own ethnic group back in the old country. Forgive me for not wanting any part of this current dispute.

If you don't want any part of it then you are free to remain neutral in discussions of this issue. By arguing against reparations you are participating in the dispute.

> And to those who will certainly tell me that I’ve benefitted from the modern spoils of slavery: I beg to differ. My first decade in the US was all about climbing out of the pit of “you’re not white enough for us because you didn’t go to a top school”.

That doesn't challenge the assertion that you benefitted from the accumulated capital that was in part built on the forced labor of slaves.

> That shit still haunts me to this day.

I'm truly sorry for your traumatic experience.

p.s. I've upvoted this comment because while I disagree with the substance, it raises important arguments that need to be responded to and the comment itself contributes to the discussion. I'd like to ask down voters to consider why they feel this comment needs to be suppressed because I disagree with their opinion on the value of the comment and its contribution to the discussion.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#89

Post by chordalkeyboard »

NinjaSaves wrote: post #43
seph-reed wrote: post #2

This seems like an absolutely indispensable technology for achieving reparations. Most black Americans have ancestors who (slavery) worked a lot of unpaid hours. Having clear metrics on how many slaves there were is a step towards having a well founded number for what the cost of reparations should be. There are some places in the US which have started, but they're just kind of pulling numbers out of a hat and I don'…

"Achieving reparations" is difficult language for me to accept. It is "thinking past the sale" that does not treat the subject with the necessary fair-minded big picture consideration. It's not clear that reparations are a good idea in practice, or something to be "achieved," or even strived for (they might do more harm in practice to the group they intend to protect, as many well-intentioned and politically extremis…

> It's not clear that reparations are a good idea in practice, or something to be "achieved," or even strived for (they might do more harm in practice to the group they intend to protect, as many well-intentioned and politically extremist ideologies do) not to mention any considerations involving whether it would be possible to sustain, or affordable, etc.

These are important considerations that impact directly on the form that reparations "should" take. However they are orthogonal to the merits of the claim for reparations.

Re: Who Were America’s Enslaved? New Database Humanizes the Names Behind the Numbers

#90

Post by OptionX »

throwaway535 wrote: post #83
NinjaSaves wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Achieving reparations" is difficult language for me to accept. It is "thinking past the sale" that does not treat the subject with the necessary fair-minded big picture consideration. It's not clear that reparations are a good idea in practice, or something to be "achieved," or even strived for (they might do more harm in practice to the group they intend to protect, as many well-intentioned and politically extremis…

> It's not clear that reparations are a good idea in practice, or something to be "achieved," or even strived for (they might do more harm in practice to the group they intend to protect, This is a very patronizing argument. If someone breaks into your bank account and steals your cash, then later is caught. There is no valid line of reasoning that goes "well I'll only give the money back if you tell me how you plan…

Well, by your own analogy. If both you and the robber have been dead for 300+ years would it make sense to make the robbers family pay your descendants for it? Keep in mind none of the people had contact with anyone remotely involved with the original robbery or had any way to influence it or impact it. Should the sons pay for the sins of the fathers? Pretty sure I could find someone in your ancestral line that commit a crime, can I convict you for it?

So, yeah, the merits are kinda low to.

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