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A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

blogs.windows.com

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Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#351

Post by bfgoodrich »

pompeirules wrote: post #342
bfgoodrich wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India again. Absolutely bizarre. Are you just trolling at this point? "Country with little spends little money. SHOCKING story at 11" And you bring up Italy in the EU where Apple is doing fantastically. At this point this is just farce. Talk about Ferrari again, as that was fun.

You're a funny guy Completely out of touch but funny This statistic shows the market share of mobile operating systems in Italy from 2010 to 2019. The market share of Android has been increasing since 2010 and was at 74.18 percent in 2019. On the other hand, iOS market share decreased from 49.83 percent in 2010 to 24.78 percent in 2019. So no, Apple is doing terribly in Italy compared to how it did before. You also b…

You created a burner account for this. Yeah, that's a good sign. Are they burner accounts all the way down? How many other personas are you in here?

"You also brought up India."

Specifically to point out that number of people is largely irrelevant. But, as with the Ferrari nonsense, way to completely miss the point.

"Of course you deleted it as soon as you realised it."

LOL, I deleted it because I realized there were newer numbers (humorously BETTER numbers as the iphone is seasonal), but by then you'd added more stupid edits to your insane comment. WOMP WOMP!

The Italy thing is uproarious, and betrays that you're a clown. Apple is shipping more units to Italy than ever, but at the very low end people replaced their dumbphones with junk Huawei units. Yeah, Apple isn't crying in their sleep. Apple still completely dominates the wealthy and upper middle class in virtually every nation the world over.

This all started with an insanely stupid comment that Apple only matters in the US, which is so profoundly dumb it disqualifies anyone from talking again. See - you.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#352

Post by saagarjha »

sharpneli wrote: post #344
haberman wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, are you suggesting that a large part of the M1 performance advantage is thanks to the weaker ARM memory model? Is the 20% perf hit of TSO mode that you cite an ARM vs. ARM comparison? If so, that would be pretty damning. Is there an easy way to flip the M1 into TSO mode for benchmarking? I would love to observe this 20% for myself.

Large part yes. But not The reason. It’s fast because of many things like that. TSO doesn’t affect single core perf much so it’s not really a factor there, and yet it’s blazingly fast. However the multicore perf is really great too. I haven’t verified the exact numbers myself. And it will depend on the exact thing you’re running. It’s just on the order of low tens of percents. TSO cannot be enabled outside of rosetta…

TSO is possible to enable outside of Rosetta with some shenanigans in the kernel. Unfortunately getting Rosetta to generate code that is comparable with what a compiler would create is quite difficult: it needs to lift x86 into its own IR and then re-do register allocation, which it is quite good at but obviously not perfect.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#353

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #328
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You can buy a Raspberry pi for 30$,and run whatever you want on it. For those in lower income nations this is an absolute game changer. Except that decent RaspberyPI configs that could replace PCs cost around $60-70(In EU) and once you add a display, peripherals and a decent microSD card(which is still smaller, slower and less reliable than even a budget SSD) and you're looking at over $100 and for that kind of cash…

Linux desktops used to run with 4MiB of RAM on a 33MHz processor. You don't need the ultimate best to have a usable computer.

OK, sure, "we got to the moon with 4Mhz" but try watching youtube, editng photos and google docs with that configuration.

What you probably mean by usable computer is either an embedded system or some ssh server but what most people actually do with computers is access the web and the modern web is so bloated that without fast hardware and proper software it becomes a pain to do anything remotely productive or fun.

That's why the PI is not yet a good mainstream PC. It's too slow sometimes and has too many gotchas that the users who are not tinkerers won't put up with.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#354

Post by pompeirules »

bfgoodrich wrote: post #224
pjmlp wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do travel a lot, hence why I know how little iPhones are seen around the planet. I guess Bangkok holds 28% of Thailand population then. https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/thailand Also the issue being discussed here are Apple computers with M1, even less than those 28%, in case you also want numbers.

You clearly don't travel, or you're a liar, because your varied claims are uproariously disconnected reality. Further, your snarky misunderstanding of their statement is more disingenuous nonsense. If 28% of Bangkok citizens had iPhones, you will lose count because it's a large city. That would make them very common by any metric. A country where the GDP per capita is $7000 USD / capita and still the iPhone is at 28%…

> and still the iPhone is at 28%,

It's not.

It's more like 25% and dropping

In Italy iPhones used to be 50% of the market, because they were a status symbol and it was literally the only smartphone available, ten years after they have dropped below 24% globally, but new sells are much less, because

The number of people buying their first iPhone is declining. Apple's annual Worldwide Developers Conference this week will showcase how the technology giant is diversifying so that it no longer has to rely so heavily on its signature product.

-- 20th June 2020 - Bangkok Post

Regarding new phones Apple is now third with 10% of the market share in Thailand behind Samsung (22.3%) and Huawei (17.6%)

Consider that 25% is a minority, 75% is 3 times larger.

Apple is not gaining market shares anywhere, except in the US.

In China it dropped from 25% to 17%, in Europe from 17% to 14% in the last year.

The article was about ARM in computers, Apple computing devices are only 8% of the total in Thailand.

They were 9% at the beginning of this year.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#355

Post by saagarjha »

socialdemocrat wrote: post #289
oblio wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, two main reasons: 1. Innovator's dilemma: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator%27s_Dilemma ARM in this case is the underdog, attacking the incumbent x86. It is the lesser tech because it started from "below" (lower value niches not taken by the incumbent which prefers higher profit margins). 2. RISC vs CISC has never been settled. Until Apple (and Amazon super recently) produced their super recent archit…

What aspect added to x86 is RISC like? It sounds a bit like an oxymoron. If you start with a complex instruction set, you cannot make it less complex by adding new instructions.

Generally, this is (poorly) used to refer to x86 decoding things to micro-ops.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#356

Post by saagarjha »

sonotmyname wrote: post #265
ksec wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AH! Thank You. The timeline make sense. Seems Apple have time this perfectly for their transition. I am now giving them some creditable excuses for the negligence of Mac in the past few years.

> Seems Apple have time this perfectly for their transition Important to note that this doesn't really apply to Apple Silicon. Rosetta II isn't X86 emulation, it's a translation layer - big technical difference.

Rosetta runs emulation, it's just that part of it is a ahead-of-time translator.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#357

Post by pompeirules »

bfgoodrich wrote: post #351
pompeirules wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're a funny guy Completely out of touch but funny This statistic shows the market share of mobile operating systems in Italy from 2010 to 2019. The market share of Android has been increasing since 2010 and was at 74.18 percent in 2019. On the other hand, iOS market share decreased from 49.83 percent in 2010 to 24.78 percent in 2019. So no, Apple is doing terribly in Italy compared to how it did before. You also b…

You created a burner account for this. Yeah, that's a good sign. Are they burner accounts all the way down? How many other personas are you in here? "You also brought up India." Specifically to point out that number of people is largely irrelevant. But, as with the Ferrari nonsense, way to completely miss the point. "Of course you deleted it as soon as you realised it." LOL, I deleted it because I realized there were…

said the Apple fan boy who created the account 20 days ago to argue violently and offensively :)

> This all started with an insanely stupid comment that Apple only matters in the US,

It's true

Apple is losing market share everywhere on mobile market and it's not gaining in computing devices

You might be surprised how much irrelevant the US bubble is outside of the US

> LOL, I deleted it because I realized there were newer numbers (humorously BETTER

That you decided to not post?

Like the numbers about Italy that prove you wrong? :)

You're a genius of strategy sir.

> The Italy thing is uproarious, and betrays that you're a clown.

Well... Being Italian I am probably more a mafiosi-spaghetti-pizza-mandolino-mammamia-mario

> Apple is shipping more units to Italy than ever

Shipping maybe, selling definitely not.

I'm sure you have no problem understanding Italian

Il mercato smartphone 2020 parte in Italia con un primo trimestre “drogato” dalla pandemia di coronavirus. Momento in cui Apple perde ben il 70% nello stesso periodo del 2019, lasciando alle tre posizione del podio gli Android, Samsung, Huawei e Xiaomi. May 11, 2020

> Apple still completely dominates the wealthy and upper middle class in virtually every nation

Not in Italy

Maybe in the US

> But, as with the Ferrari nonsense, way to completely miss the point.

Only for those who do not understand.

You must be tired.

Slow down and go to sleep.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#358

Post by whatever1 »

wayneftw wrote: post #314
whatever1 wrote: post #132

Now we need an ARM processor that can compete with M1. Seems that Apple caught everyone with the pants down in the PC industry. Microsoft SQ2 processor that ships in their $1400 Surface Pro X is almost 50% slower than M1.

> ...Apple caught everyone with the pants down in the PC industry... Pffft. There's no competition between PCs and Apple, they're not even in the same class. PCs are general purpose computers and Apple products are closed platform devices that you don't really own or have any control over. That's why Macs only have 10% the market size of PCs.

Pretty sure this is the discussion that happened in Blackberry and Nokia HQs when the iphone was announced

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#359

Post by Razengan »

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #158
whatever1 wrote: post #132

Now we need an ARM processor that can compete with M1. Seems that Apple caught everyone with the pants down in the PC industry. Microsoft SQ2 processor that ships in their $1400 Surface Pro X is almost 50% slower than M1.

It would be hard to argue that the PC world won't at least make some attempt at shifting to ARM. Apple has demonstrated far too large of a performance and power efficiency savings to not try. Of course, even if that becomes successful, x86 will be available for decades. Right now, ARM Macs are going to just be lost for any kind of gaming (except Catalyst versions of mobile games). This is probably ridiculous, but my…

A hypothetical Nintendo console that uses a "N1" chip designed by Apple and an iOS/App Store-like UI would be sweet as hell.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#360

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

px43 wrote: post #336
ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> " Are you really arguing the that Windows CE platform was more open than Android? " The topic is the control that the user has over a phone they purchased, not source code availability for the OS, so yes, I am. Windows CE smartphones provided access about the same as Windows 98/NT in terms of the freedom to run apps and providing apps unfettered access to OS level APIs. The same can't be said for Android and Apple'…

I feel like you're trying to sell the utter lack of a security model as some sort of feature. Power users and developers have always had the ability to circumvent the Android sandbox on their own devices. Windows CE just never tried to implement security. Malicious apps had unfettered access to everything, just like in most Windows based ecosystems. N900s were pretty rad little toys, but anything you could do with th…

> "I feel like you're trying to sell the utter lack of a security model as some sort of feature."

I'm just describing the way things happened to be back in that era.

> "Windows CE just never tried to implement security. Malicious apps had unfettered access to everything, just like in most Windows based ecosystems."

Yes, and? That's just as true of early PalmOS and the other early mobile OSes. Security against malicious apps just wasn't a consideration at that time on smartphones/PDAs precisely because there was no app store and no significant quantity of malicious apps.

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