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A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

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Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#341

Post by bfgoodrich »

romanoderoma wrote: post #329
bfgoodrich wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess Apple is done. Just doesn't matter at all. Wrap it up boys. Groan. Alright buddy. "those 3 have less than 80 million citizens combined" Those three combined have a GDP almost double India's. And the rich of India overwhelmingly carry iPhones, as an aside. The rich everywhere carry iPhones. The middle-class everywhere carry iPhones. If you're trying to sell a product or service, worldwide , there's a reason th…

> Groan. Alright buddy. I'm probably too old to be your buddy. Keep calm and read stats. > Those three combined have a GDP almost double India's Italy alone has the same GDP of India. And it's only one of 27 countries in Europe. And not even the richest. Seriously, read the stats The share of Apple in the mobile phone market, across India, in July 2020 was approximately 3.35 percent 96% of a billion people are not bu…

India again. Absolutely bizarre. Are you just trolling at this point?

"Country with little spends little money. SHOCKING story at 11"

And you bring up Italy in the EU where Apple is doing fantastically. At this point this is just farce. Talk about Ferrari again, as that was fun.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#342

Post by pompeirules »

bfgoodrich wrote: post #341
romanoderoma wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Groan. Alright buddy. I'm probably too old to be your buddy. Keep calm and read stats. > Those three combined have a GDP almost double India's Italy alone has the same GDP of India. And it's only one of 27 countries in Europe. And not even the richest. Seriously, read the stats The share of Apple in the mobile phone market, across India, in July 2020 was approximately 3.35 percent 96% of a billion people are not bu…

India again. Absolutely bizarre. Are you just trolling at this point? "Country with little spends little money. SHOCKING story at 11" And you bring up Italy in the EU where Apple is doing fantastically. At this point this is just farce. Talk about Ferrari again, as that was fun.

You're a funny guy

Completely out of touch but funny

This statistic shows the market share of mobile operating systems in Italy from 2010 to 2019. The market share of Android has been increasing since 2010 and was at 74.18 percent in 2019. On the other hand, iOS market share decreased from 49.83 percent in 2010 to 24.78 percent in 2019.

So no, Apple is doing terribly in Italy compared to how it did before.

You also brought up India.

Not me.

You also posted a link to an article that made you look like a fool, because the title said one thing but the content said that Apple shipped a lot of phones in the first quarter of 2019 but the market share was still largely in favour of Android (>80% vs Of course you deleted it as soon as you realised it.

Choose more wisely next time

P.s. WOMP WOMP

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#343

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

px43 wrote: post #284
ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had that in the form of Windows CE based smartphones. As open as a PC, no walled garden, no app stores, just load your app and launch it. The market spoke decisively in rejecting it in favor of the iPhone and Android devices.

Are you really arguing the that Windows CE platform was more open than Android? Back in 2005, an open source Linux based phone was a hippie pipe dream, and carriers were FIRMLY against allowing anything open source on their networks. Android blew all of that wide open, and now the most popular phone OS in the world is an open source Linux based OS. This is what we were all dreaming about back then. I feel like this i…

Except the Android of today has not much in common with the Android from ten years ago. Android might be open sourced but is by no means like the linux that you'd run on your PC and is being increasingly built to wall you into Google's services while Samsung and the rest try to remove Google as much as possible from the equation and sway you to their services. Basically you're the cashcow they try to heave around. What a mess to be in.

Oh, and let's not forget that while Android itself is open source, the Android on your phone right now is full of binary blobs for even the basic shit. Camera driver? Image processor? Fast charging? LTE modem? Fingerprint sensor? OLED calibration? most of them are binary blobs specific either to the chip/sensor manufacturer or the OEM who designed the phone as they consider this stuff proprietary IP they wish to keep secret from the other Android OEM competitors. Move to LineageOS and you risk loosing a lot of your phone's fancy features because of that.

I love my Androids but it's still a mess and the openness is slowly going away(since Android 9 we lost call recording capability which was a huge blow for my use case). At least we still have f-droid.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#344

Post by sharpneli »

haberman wrote: post #323
sharpneli wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has to flush them. Because if another core sees the result of the atomic op it must also see everything else that the other core wrote before the op. While it can indeed first see no writes and then suddenly all it can never see just the atomic op and not the previous writes. Without that the store buffers can be kept unflushed to, as an example, see if one can get a full cacheline or whatnot and only flush then.…

Interesting, are you suggesting that a large part of the M1 performance advantage is thanks to the weaker ARM memory model? Is the 20% perf hit of TSO mode that you cite an ARM vs. ARM comparison? If so, that would be pretty damning. Is there an easy way to flip the M1 into TSO mode for benchmarking? I would love to observe this 20% for myself.

Large part yes. But not The reason. It’s fast because of many things like that. TSO doesn’t affect single core perf much so it’s not really a factor there, and yet it’s blazingly fast. However the multicore perf is really great too.

I haven’t verified the exact numbers myself. And it will depend on the exact thing you’re running. It’s just on the order of low tens of percents.

TSO cannot be enabled outside of rosetta as it’s not exactly a good arm extension. Perhaps you could do some trickery but Apple likely prevents that.

However you can test it by making something where you know rosetta generates comparable arm assembly from the X86 one and just run comparison that way. Some sort of parallel lockfree algorithm would be the best candidate.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#345

Post by csharptwdec19 »

908B64B197 wrote: post #326
csharptwdec19 wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of the UK, the purpose of the Taxes is to pay for the programming that is broadcast over the airwaves, i.e. it funds the BBC. This is somewhat of a 'compare and contrast' to the US Model, where either stations are funded by advertisements, or the public broadcasting stations that rely primarily on grants, as well as what they can get from the government; but in the case of the US, technically 'everyone' i…

I have to be completely honest here... Entertainment is a multi billion dollar industry. Companies like Disney are making record profits. Instead of relying on taxes and fees to make government-approved entertainment why not simply... make content people want to watch?

> Entertainment is a multi billion dollar industry. Companies like Disney are making record profits. Instead of relying on taxes and fees to make government-approved entertainment why not simply... make content people want to watch?

Well, it's a question of which devil you want.

In the case of Disney, much of their profits are driven by an entire lifestyle that they are selling. There's the Media itself, but then all the toys, the amusement parks, etc. And all of the advertising that goes with those, and all of the social impacts it has as a result (see next point for more)

If you go for an advertising based model, You wind up with 2nd or 3rd order social impacts. Even in the 80s, the decade of 'greed is good', the FTC put limitations on advertising in children's programming due to the psychological impacts it had. (I'd be curious to see another good look taken today, but regulators are even more toothless now than they were then.)

In both cases, however, you are at the end of the day going to be beholden to either your advertisers, or your corporate overlords for your content. And if they don't like that content, it will not see the light of day in any meaningful form, regardless of the public interest.

I feel all approaches have their place, but perhaps the advertising model could use a bit more modernization in it's regulation, with what we now understand about behavioral psychology.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#346

Post by entropicdrifter »

mumblemumble wrote: post #302
px43 wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really arguing the that Windows CE platform was more open than Android? Back in 2005, an open source Linux based phone was a hippie pipe dream, and carriers were FIRMLY against allowing anything open source on their networks. Android blew all of that wide open, and now the most popular phone OS in the world is an open source Linux based OS. This is what we were all dreaming about back then. I feel like this i…

> now the most popular phone OS in the world is an open source Linux based OS That's an interesting comment, because it really calls attention to how us nerds often perceive things differently from how the rest of the world does. I am guessing that most consumers would not recognize something that just used vanilla AOSP as an Android phone. Google's closed-source add-ons are a huge part of what people think of when t…

I mean, the average person only has a vague idea of what an OS is, let alone a specific one like Android

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#347

Post by saagarjha »

slashdev wrote: post #234
ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had that in the form of Windows CE based smartphones. As open as a PC, no walled garden, no app stores, just load your app and launch it. The market spoke decisively in rejecting it in favor of the iPhone and Android devices.

Can I boot Linux on an iPhone? Install android instead? I don't think we ended up in a place much better off from a freedom perspective. Android is a little better because parts of it are open. Google has been steadily moving things into play services though, which is not open. There is now an open source replacement for play services - I don't think it's very compatible yet though.

With bootloader exploits, yes: https://projectsandcastle.org

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#348

Post by saagarjha »

oaiey wrote: post #287
layoutIfNeeded wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The market rejected it because it had crappy UX. Those smartphones were marketed for balding dads in white shirts, working in cubicles. Steve Ballmer types. The iPhone had 60 fps smooth animations, a built-in iPod, a huge capacitive touchscreen, and most importantly none of the baggage of being associated with balding managers in their 40s. It was sexy. It was a fashion statement. There wasn’t even an AppStore on iOS…

That is exactly the point. When a 16 year old non-male teenager is accepting it, than you won. See iPhone, facebook, whatsapp, tiktok or whatever they are doing nowadays. I owned two of these devices as a personal information manager (contacts calendar ...). They were not comfortable and the data plans then were so prohibitive expensive that modern usage was far away.

There's no need to stereotype.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#349

Post by GoblinSlayer »

oaiey wrote: post #279
GoblinSlayer wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can only hope. The first Arm version, Windows 10 S was Apple style concentration camp.

This phrasing is really misplaced and hurts many many people. Please fix. And no, I am not talking about the Apple fanboys.

Yeah, it would be good if Apple fixed it, I'm as hurt as you.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#350

Post by saagarjha »

sharpneli wrote: post #124
oblio wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, two main reasons: 1. Innovator's dilemma: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator%27s_Dilemma ARM in this case is the underdog, attacking the incumbent x86. It is the lesser tech because it started from "below" (lower value niches not taken by the incumbent which prefers higher profit margins). 2. RISC vs CISC has never been settled. Until Apple (and Amazon super recently) produced their super recent archit…

Another major difference is the memory model. In X86 other CPU’s must always see the writes of a core exactly in the right order. This limits the ability to reorder store ops significantly. ARM requires a memory barrier for this. This is a major reason why X86 emulation is so slow. One must basically issue a memory barrier after every store op. M1 actually also implements the X86 memory model too in HW. It’s only usa…

I haven't done exact measurements, but I don't think the cost of enabling TSO is anywhere near as high as 20%. On the contrary, I don't think I have noticed a real difference; perhaps it is but a couple percent slower.
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