Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am hoping that given how open some ARM archs are that now it will be within hobbyist reach to create even their own motherboard, send to one of the fabs and assemble then run full-fledged Windows on it. This looks like a dream come true! You could definitely do that now and run Linux, but given that some software doesn't exist on Linux, this is very exciting.
Aren't bespoke motherboards going to be rather expensive for hobbyists?
A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM
121–130 of 418 posts
Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
M1 can accelerate the shift of home users to Macs. Microsoft devices are already out-fashioned by apple. The Windows UX is also subpar comparing to Apple. Now the hardware is also gonna completely fall behind. If all the young people get mac's for their home computers, will the next generations use Windows at workplace? Im talking about 10-20 years landscape for Windows and Office.
> M1 can accelerate the shift of home users to Macs. I can't see the M1 making a lick of difference here. Home users aren't going to double their budgets to afford an Apple machine, especially one which can't even play most games.
If I were to switch to a Mac mini I would pay about $350 less than it cost me to build my main workstation/gaming machine. According to the benchmarks and real-world tests, I'd gain quite a bit in performance over my Ryzen build, with a fraction of the power consumption which is currently 120W idle, 310W maxed out as measured by my UPS. Per real world tests, the M1 mini never goes above ~35W and stays cool and quiet even when maxed out on stress tests. Given the fact I no longer play games much at all beyond WoW and a few indie titles, and my non-gaming workflow is 100% doable on macOS, I'm sorely tempted to switch even with my reservations about Apple as a company.
> ...especially one which can't even play most games.
No one buys a Mac for AAA games, that's a fact and probably won't change immediately. With that said, Blizzard has day one native Apple Silicon support for WoW, and the benchmarks indicate the performance (depending on the game engine) sits somewhere between the GeForce 1650 and 1660 for most of the games tested so far. That covers pretty much all non-AAA titles on the performance side, leaving portability as the only real issue. I've seen tests done with Steam games and most macOS native x86_64 games make the transition via Rosetta2 quite nicely.
Not to mention, M1 Macs can now run most iOS apps natively which opens up a horde of games to the platform immediately, including popular titles like Minecraft, Fortnite, and CoD.
Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM
#123Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is no such large enterprise. You need software engineers at the very least to operate an ERP, and any organisation that doesn’t rely heavily on an ERP to operate is not a large enterprise. Any large enterprise will also have an infrastructure team, comprised of people just as likely to have strong preferences about their operating systems. Technical and design staff may make up a relatively small portion of the…
I don't know in what kind of circles you mingle, but the software engineers I know that are working on ERPs are VEEEERY different to the ones that are working in FAANGS and startups. Think (Notepad++ and JDeveloper) vs (vim/emacs and cargo). And as far as enterprise IT, there are a ton of Windows infrastructure folks, and again, there's little overlap between those and FAANG types. Plus infrastructure folks frequentl…
In any case, the reason enterprise adopts these technologies isn’t directly because of a technical ROI. It’s because giving people the tools that they want to use is generally seen as beneficial. Providing good UX to internal users is becoming just as trendy in enterprise as DevSecOps and Service Oriented Architecture is. There’s plenty of fairly obvious business reasons why enterprise would care about these things. One of the more important ones is that these organisations are competing FAANGs and startups to hire talent. If you walked around the bank office I was working in today I doubt you’d be able to tell it apart from a typical well-funded startup.
Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM
#124Earlier quoted context omitted.
I do not understand why ARM is considered lesser technology. RISC was always considered to be better then CISC in many academic circles.
Well, two main reasons: 1. Innovator's dilemma: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator%27s_Dilemma ARM in this case is the underdog, attacking the incumbent x86. It is the lesser tech because it started from "below" (lower value niches not taken by the incumbent which prefers higher profit margins). 2. RISC vs CISC has never been settled. Until Apple (and Amazon super recently) produced their super recent archit…
M1 actually also implements the X86 memory model too in HW. It’s only usable for the rosetta applications and comes with perhaps 20% perf penalty. But it’s still way better than emulating it with barriers.
In C++ terms it pretty much means X86 is always seq_cst. With ARM one can actually get benefit of the different memory model options. As an example one can do an atomic access without having to flush the whole store buffer out, which is impossible in X86.
Due to the instruction coding and memory model for multicore I don’t really see X86 dominating anymore in the upcoming decades.
And as the modern OoO cores are so similar internally it’s not even a big deal in the end. AMD shouldn’t have any issues with producing a Zen arm core. Switch the inst decoder and that’s pretty much it (ton of design work for sure). Keep the X86 mem model optional for emulation and binary translation can be almost thought as just making X86 instructions into fixed width ahead of time.
Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Most people buying computers don't want flexibility, they want reliability I think this is a correct statement, for the reason that what was once a enthusiast activity (using computers) becomes a necessity, and tolerance of problems reduces drastically when your life/salary depends on it working flawlessly. Imagine saying these things about a dishwasher? Who’d care if the circuitry driving the buttons controlling t…
The dishwasher doesn't connect to the internet, doesn't have all my passwords and emails, doesn't access my bank accounts and can't spy on me. This is why I don't care how it works.
That's why the war on general purpose computing is so upsetting: it seeks to turn general purpose tools into appliances.
Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM
#126I hope that the possibility of an industry-wide switch to ARM doesn't take away the flexibility we now have with the PC. Standardized parts and a well defined firmware interface (and thus "standard" bootloaders instead of a multitude like on ARM) is what makes the PC truly special. Moving to a world where you can't install Linux or where every single machine has incompatible firmware would be disastrous, IMHO. Curren…
That was true ~15years ago but less so today. Modern PC EUFI bootloaders are bigger and more bloated than any uboot build in existence, and things like device tree support in linux means that you can support various boards with the same kernel (including boards that don't exist yet). Sure you'll probably still need custom bootloaders for most boards, but it's not like you can swap your motherboard BIOS/UEFI chips and expect them to work either. The PC "platform" with hardcoded physical addresses for your serial ports is nice if you're running DOS but it's not really relevant for modern operating systems which have to employ much more complex hardware discovery mechanisms.
It's true that on ARM it's still a bit anarchic and bespoke in practice but that's mainly because there's no reason to push for strong standardization when every vendor is building their own kernels for their own devices anyway.
But the tools do exist (on Linux at least, not sure about the other OSs), if desktop ARM becomes mainstream things could settle fairly quickly. It's less of a technical problem and more of a "why bother?" problem.
Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM
#127What happened to the patent issues surrounding x86 emulation? For example I remember reading this: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/06/intel... First Apple and now Microsoft. Do they license the patents from Intel or did they expire? Or are they working around that somehow?
According to Wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64#History ), AMD's x86-64 was announced in 1999 and the full specification was released in 2000. Assuming patents last for 20 years, they should have all expired by now. For SIMD, this includes everything up to SSE2; most software which uses any of the newer SIMD extensions should have a fallback to SSE2, since older CPUs don't have these newer extensions.
Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM
#128It seems like Apple and Microsoft are picking up the ball that Transmeta dropped >10 years ago.
It's a slightly different kettle of fish to do, although the decode itself is presumably the same.
Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM
#129I hope that the possibility of an industry-wide switch to ARM doesn't take away the flexibility we now have with the PC. Standardized parts and a well defined firmware interface (and thus "standard" bootloaders instead of a multitude like on ARM) is what makes the PC truly special. Moving to a world where you can't install Linux or where every single machine has incompatible firmware would be disastrous, IMHO. Curren…
The xbox and the iPhone are the security models I expect on almost all mainstream computing devices soon. I estimate that it will be impossible or near impossible to execute any code that was not approved by the hardware vendor, and obtained by the hardware owner IDing themselves to the code distribution/signing service ("stores"). Anonymous software publishing or use/consumption will be relegated solely to what will…
https://www.statista.com/statistics/576473/united-states-qua...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_share_of_personal_compu...
Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM
#130I hope that the possibility of an industry-wide switch to ARM doesn't take away the flexibility we now have with the PC. Standardized parts and a well defined firmware interface (and thus "standard" bootloaders instead of a multitude like on ARM) is what makes the PC truly special. Moving to a world where you can't install Linux or where every single machine has incompatible firmware would be disastrous, IMHO. Curren…
>Standardized parts and a well defined firmware interface (and thus "standard" bootloaders instead of a multitude like on ARM) That was true ~15years ago but less so today. Modern PC EUFI bootloaders are bigger and more bloated than any uboot build in existence, and things like device tree support in linux means that you can support various boards with the same kernel (including boards that don't exist yet). Sure you…
This is exactly right, but I fear the incentives have changed and we'll never again see something like the x86/IBM-compatible/Wintel world of "standard" inter-compatible systems.
As you say, it's a "why bother?" problem, and no manufacturer will want to bother: Apple has no interest in making it easy to run other OSes, Microsoft wants to sell you "Windows Surface" devices, not general-purpose computers, corporate buyers want a "secure" locked-down environment with a signed bootloader...
Are there any powerful stakeholders who benefit from interoperability?