A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM • Hacker News Board

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#111

Post by bserge » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 12:21 PM UTC

beagle3 wrote: post #65

oblio wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iPads are very limited, functionality wise. You barely have multiple windows. You can't really plug peripherals in. RAM is really limited. Etc. _______________________________________ Also, HA HA. I've checked and I was right. As far as I can see the cheapest one is $329, BUT with 32GB of storage, which is absolutely ridiculous in 2020. 128GB costs $449, and even that's barely enough storage. The keyboard is $159 (!)…

I haven't seen an $400 laptop you can upgrade the memory for. Perhaps they exist, but I've never seen one. The $250-300 chromebooks are much weaker than an iPad. I don't know if you've noticed, but Apple did release iPhone SE2 which is an almost-flagship at medium price. An iPad with a slightly different iOS and a cheaper than $129 keyboard (there are $50 bluetooh keyboards that work with the iPad, not by apple, that…

> I haven't seen an $400 laptop you can upgrade the memory for. Perhaps they exist, but I've never seen one.

I hope you mean recently... like in the last 2-3 years. Because it's a recent trend and I personally hate it. Wasteful as hell.

But it used to be the norm, especially on cheaper laptops.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#112

Post by iSnow » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 12:22 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #19

codeulike wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Businesses above a certain size overwhelmingly use pcs unless they are in specific arty sectors. M1 won't change that, or at least not rapidly. I think Microsoft have 5 or 6 different lines of business that bring in billions or more of revenue: windows, cloud, gaming, office/productivity and surface. They are the most diversified of the big players.

Totally agreed. I'd also want to add something for this: > Businesses above a certain size overwhelmingly use pcs unless they are in specific arty sectors. M1 won't change that, or at least not rapidly. Besides the fact, which many HN users working for FAANGS or startups don't encounter, that big enterprises are both rigid and also quite locked into the Microsoft/Windows/Office mono culture, big companies tend to hav…

>Things with just 1 vendor tend to be completely ignored, if they're meant to be used throughout the company.

I disagree. I work in such a company and they are always looking for one and only one vendor for their millions of PCs. It used to be Dell, now HP but they completely outsource procurement, maintenance, repairs and disposal of the computers to that one full-service provider.

Apple wouldn't be considered because they don't offer this full-spectrum service.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#113

Post by varispeed » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 12:25 PM UTC

chalst wrote: post #108

varispeed wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am hoping that given how open some ARM archs are that now it will be within hobbyist reach to create even their own motherboard, send to one of the fabs and assemble then run full-fledged Windows on it. This looks like a dream come true! You could definitely do that now and run Linux, but given that some software doesn't exist on Linux, this is very exciting.

Aren't bespoke motherboards going to be rather expensive for hobbyists?

Yes, this is still relatively expensive, but probably you could do it with less than $2000 including buying necessary tools.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#114

Post by shawnz » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 12:26 PM UTC

nojito wrote: post #103

sneak wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The xbox and the iPhone are the security models I expect on almost all mainstream computing devices soon. I estimate that it will be impossible or near impossible to execute any code that was not approved by the hardware vendor, and obtained by the hardware owner IDing themselves to the code distribution/signing service ("stores"). Anonymous software publishing or use/consumption will be relegated solely to what will…

I love comments like these. Android phones largely out number iOS devices and phone home far more than iOS devices. This illusion of caring about "security" or "privacy rights" that hackernews expresses never ever passes the sniff test.

They never claimed that Android vendors aren't facing similar issues.

And I think your point just goes to show how easily Apple could turn around the public perception of this issue if they just allowed sideloading.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#115

Post by bserge » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 12:26 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #69

beagle3 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't seen an $400 laptop you can upgrade the memory for. Perhaps they exist, but I've never seen one. The $250-300 chromebooks are much weaker than an iPad. I don't know if you've noticed, but Apple did release iPhone SE2 which is an almost-flagship at medium price. An iPad with a slightly different iOS and a cheaper than $129 keyboard (there are $50 bluetooh keyboards that work with the iPad, not by apple, that…

Let's see. I know they are playing the long game, but you're grossly underestimating how big the market for cheap stuff is. Even if it's subsidized by spyware. I doubt Apple wants to be in that market, it's a gross market (low margins, tons of support costs, etc.). Just to give you an example, French PC site, laptop section for €400 to €600 (they also have 10 or so under €400): https://www.fnac.com/PC-de-400-a-600-Eu…

Every time I see the selection of cheap laptops/tablets/phones I wonder "why even try to combat climate change?".

You've got these bottom of the barrel machines that fail very soon, and barely have enough performance as it is. It makes more sense to save up, buy something twice the price and use it for much longer.

It's like the boots theory of wealth. You buy cheap shit over and over again, instead of buying something good that will last many times longer. The sad thing it doesn't just affect you, it affects everything and everyone.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#116

Post by hu3 » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 12:26 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #76

qalmakka wrote: post #70

I hope that the possibility of an industry-wide switch to ARM doesn't take away the flexibility we now have with the PC. Standardized parts and a well defined firmware interface (and thus "standard" bootloaders instead of a multitude like on ARM) is what makes the PC truly special. Moving to a world where you can't install Linux or where every single machine has incompatible firmware would be disastrous, IMHO. Curren…

The xbox and the iPhone are the security models I expect on almost all mainstream computing devices soon. I estimate that it will be impossible or near impossible to execute any code that was not approved by the hardware vendor, and obtained by the hardware owner IDing themselves to the code distribution/signing service ("stores"). Anonymous software publishing or use/consumption will be relegated solely to what will…

> Modifying the signed apps or OS to remove their phone home and spying will be impossible, like iOS is today.

Except if you are the OS maker bending over to a dictatorship like we already have today.

At least with open source eyeballs are allowed to investigate and change without breaking some nonsense ToS.

I hope initiatives like puri.sm thrive.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#117

Post by microtonal » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 12:27 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #76

qalmakka wrote: post #70

I hope that the possibility of an industry-wide switch to ARM doesn't take away the flexibility we now have with the PC. Standardized parts and a well defined firmware interface (and thus "standard" bootloaders instead of a multitude like on ARM) is what makes the PC truly special. Moving to a world where you can't install Linux or where every single machine has incompatible firmware would be disastrous, IMHO. Curren…

The xbox and the iPhone are the security models I expect on almost all mainstream computing devices soon. I estimate that it will be impossible or near impossible to execute any code that was not approved by the hardware vendor, and obtained by the hardware owner IDing themselves to the code distribution/signing service ("stores"). Anonymous software publishing or use/consumption will be relegated solely to what will…

consumer demand for malware-free (but not vendor spyware-free) platforms is driving this in a big way

The thing is, you can eat your cake and have it too. Various distributions (e.g. Ubuntu and Fedora) already use secure boot to verify the bootloader - kernel - module chain. There is no reason that this couldn't be extended to e.g. only running signed Flatpaks too. And yet, at the same time, you can boot these distributions without secure boot, load unsigned kernel modules, etc.

It is true that a combination of code signing and sandboxing provides a lot of additional protections. But a less consumer-hostile flavor could be where by default the system is restrictive, but the user always has the power to disable certain or all security mechanisms.

The problem is that it is not only about security and protecting against malware for these vendors. It's also about funneling applications and subscriptions through their app stores, so that they can take their 30% cuts. They don't just want to profit from the initial sale, but also the continued use of a system. The security argument is just used to trap users in their app store ecosystems.

What makes this more unfortunate is that a large contingent of the Linux community is opposed to better security measures by default. This is why many Linux distributions are still stuck in a 90ies threat model where gaining UID 0 access is what one should protect against, while applications can freely roam in users' home directories. Consequently, there are only few Linux distributions that are competitive to iOS or macOS when it comes to desktop security.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#118

Post by bserge » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 12:28 PM UTC

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #17

Microsoft are between a rock and a hard place. They've done a very good job maintaining compatibility with windows/DOS x86 programs as hardware and the OS grows, but eventually for windows to survive and be competitive they need to ditch it and do a successful port to the next generation (presumably ARM). This will be challenging and painful for many of their existing users.

Hopefully they drop support for important CAD and media editing software, so those companies have no choice but to turn to Linux.

I really hope Windows on the desktop goes the way of Windows Mobile and Windows Phone.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#119

Post by sharpneli » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 12:29 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #76

qalmakka wrote: post #70

I hope that the possibility of an industry-wide switch to ARM doesn't take away the flexibility we now have with the PC. Standardized parts and a well defined firmware interface (and thus "standard" bootloaders instead of a multitude like on ARM) is what makes the PC truly special. Moving to a world where you can't install Linux or where every single machine has incompatible firmware would be disastrous, IMHO. Curren…

The xbox and the iPhone are the security models I expect on almost all mainstream computing devices soon. I estimate that it will be impossible or near impossible to execute any code that was not approved by the hardware vendor, and obtained by the hardware owner IDing themselves to the code distribution/signing service ("stores"). Anonymous software publishing or use/consumption will be relegated solely to what will…

> Already every mac available for purchase, even the Intel ones, requires online activation to wipe and reinstall the storage

There is a massive practical upside of this. It makes thefts worthless, or almost worthless as the only value is spare parts.

It worked like a charm for phones. Thefts of smarphones were rising very rapidly but then diminished as they become worthless to steal.

However it would be nice to be able to disable this for allowing usage in offline environment.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#120

Post by hu3 » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 12:30 PM UTC

marmaduke wrote: post #102

sneak wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The xbox and the iPhone are the security models I expect on almost all mainstream computing devices soon. I estimate that it will be impossible or near impossible to execute any code that was not approved by the hardware vendor, and obtained by the hardware owner IDing themselves to the code distribution/signing service ("stores"). Anonymous software publishing or use/consumption will be relegated solely to what will…

> Most people buying computers don't want flexibility, they want reliability I think this is a correct statement, for the reason that what was once a enthusiast activity (using computers) becomes a necessity, and tolerance of problems reduces drastically when your life/salary depends on it working flawlessly. Imagine saying these things about a dishwasher? Who’d care if the circuitry driving the buttons controlling t…

The dishwasher doesn't connect to the internet, doesn't have all my passwords and emails, doesn't access my bank accounts and can't spy on me. This is why I don't care how it works.