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A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

blogs.windows.com

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Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#131

Post by piokoch »

qalmakka wrote: post #70

I hope that the possibility of an industry-wide switch to ARM doesn't take away the flexibility we now have with the PC. Standardized parts and a well defined firmware interface (and thus "standard" bootloaders instead of a multitude like on ARM) is what makes the PC truly special. Moving to a world where you can't install Linux or where every single machine has incompatible firmware would be disastrous, IMHO. Curren…

"Current PCs can last for decades" this might not sound as an advantage for PC computer producers. Surely they would prefer mobile devices model in which many people switch device every 2 years.

I bet there are some higher ups in Dell, HP counting how wonderful it would be to force people to switch to the new model more often. Or maybe even sell hardware subscription.

This would be terrible for the environment, but who cares (never heard Tim Cook or Bill Gates going on the stage and saying, hey, we have a new fancy model (i-whatever or Surface), but your 2 years old one is also great, so keep using it, this would be good for the environment).

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#133

Post by tonyedgecombe »

shawnz wrote: post #114
nojito wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love comments like these. Android phones largely out number iOS devices and phone home far more than iOS devices. This illusion of caring about "security" or "privacy rights" that hackernews expresses never ever passes the sniff test.

They never claimed that Android vendors aren't facing similar issues. And I think your point just goes to show how easily Apple could turn around the public perception of this issue if they just allowed sideloading.

They never claimed that Android vendors aren't facing similar issues.

No, but like many here they couldn't stop bleeting about Apple.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#134

Post by mhh__ »

lxgr wrote: post #94
microtonal wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Older AMD CPUs, such as the K5 were RISC CPUs with an x86 decoding frontend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_K5

Isn't that arguably true for all modern x86 CPUs, including Intel's?

That is true, although it's worth saying that (if I'm not mistaken) outside of patents we don't really know what the micro-ops do i.e. RISC possibly isn't the best descriptor.

The microarchitectural classification of a modern CPU is slightly murky, i.e. a modern x86 has a pipeline a la the first one to do so, but the way the CPU actually uses it is completely different (i.e. OoO, speculative etc.)

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#135

Post by T-A »

lxgr wrote: post #92
me551ah wrote: post #82

One really good side effect of this move is going to be that you can run Android apps with ease on Windows. I wonder if this will make people move towards apps instead of electron apps. Since android apps are made for low power devices, they would run with minimal resource consumption on laptops. They are pretty snappy too.

How would an x64 emulator help with running Android applications on a Windows computer? Are you maybe mixing this up with Microsoft's recent Android on Windows efforts? These would require an ARM emulator for x86, not the other way around.

GP is implying that PCs will move to ARM and run legacy Windows software on the x64 emulator. Android apps compiled for ARM will therefore run natively.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#136

Post by gtirloni »

bserge wrote: post #115
oblio wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's see. I know they are playing the long game, but you're grossly underestimating how big the market for cheap stuff is. Even if it's subsidized by spyware. I doubt Apple wants to be in that market, it's a gross market (low margins, tons of support costs, etc.). Just to give you an example, French PC site, laptop section for €400 to €600 (they also have 10 or so under €400): https://www.fnac.com/PC-de-400-a-600-Eu…

Every time I see the selection of cheap laptops/tablets/phones I wonder "why even try to combat climate change?". You've got these bottom of the barrel machines that fail very soon, and barely have enough performance as it is. It makes more sense to save up, buy something twice the price and use it for much longer. It's like the boots theory of wealth. You buy cheap shit over and over again, instead of buying somethi…

I know many people with cheap laptops running for >5 years. Vendors like Asus have stepped up their game considerably.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#137

Post by toyg »

sharpneli wrote: post #119
sneak wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The xbox and the iPhone are the security models I expect on almost all mainstream computing devices soon. I estimate that it will be impossible or near impossible to execute any code that was not approved by the hardware vendor, and obtained by the hardware owner IDing themselves to the code distribution/signing service ("stores"). Anonymous software publishing or use/consumption will be relegated solely to what will…

> Already every mac available for purchase, even the Intel ones, requires online activation to wipe and reinstall the storage There is a massive practical upside of this. It makes thefts worthless, or almost worthless as the only value is spare parts. It worked like a charm for phones. Thefts of smarphones were rising very rapidly but then diminished as they become worthless to steal. However it would be nice to be a…

> Thefts of smarphones were rising very rapidly but then diminished

Did it really? In absence of official statistics, I think it just got normalized. When everyone has a monthly contract with insurance, it's not a tragedy if the phone gets stolen: you make a call, they send you a new phone, life goes on.

In the UK at least, phones do get stolen all over the place, it's just not reported anymore because it's simply a fact of life.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#138

Post by ithkuil »

ForHackernews wrote: post #130
simias wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Standardized parts and a well defined firmware interface (and thus "standard" bootloaders instead of a multitude like on ARM) That was true ~15years ago but less so today. Modern PC EUFI bootloaders are bigger and more bloated than any uboot build in existence, and things like device tree support in linux means that you can support various boards with the same kernel (including boards that don't exist yet). Sure you…

> if desktop ARM becomes mainstream things could settle fairly quickly. It's less of a technical problem and more of a "why bother?" problem. This is exactly right, but I fear the incentives have changed and we'll never again see something like the x86/IBM-compatible/Wintel world of "standard" inter-compatible systems. As you say, it's a "why bother?" problem, and no manufacturer will want to bother: Apple has no int…

> Are there any powerful stakeholders who benefit from interoperability?

All those companies selling motherboards for gamers etc?

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#139

Post by Hamuko »

ForHackernews wrote: post #130
simias wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Standardized parts and a well defined firmware interface (and thus "standard" bootloaders instead of a multitude like on ARM) That was true ~15years ago but less so today. Modern PC EUFI bootloaders are bigger and more bloated than any uboot build in existence, and things like device tree support in linux means that you can support various boards with the same kernel (including boards that don't exist yet). Sure you…

> if desktop ARM becomes mainstream things could settle fairly quickly. It's less of a technical problem and more of a "why bother?" problem. This is exactly right, but I fear the incentives have changed and we'll never again see something like the x86/IBM-compatible/Wintel world of "standard" inter-compatible systems. As you say, it's a "why bother?" problem, and no manufacturer will want to bother: Apple has no int…

>Apple has no interest in making it easy to run other OSes

I'm not convinced that this is necessarily true. They advertised running Linux VMs during their presentation, they made a tool specifically for installing Windows on Macs and they even recently stated how Windows on ARM Macs is really up to Microsoft. If you could run Windows on an M1 Mac, it'd really turn it into a powerful and power-efficient "do-it-all" machine, since you could still boot into Windows and run that niche Windows software that you need from time to time.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#140

Post by macspoofing »

qalmakka wrote: post #70

I hope that the possibility of an industry-wide switch to ARM doesn't take away the flexibility we now have with the PC. Standardized parts and a well defined firmware interface (and thus "standard" bootloaders instead of a multitude like on ARM) is what makes the PC truly special. Moving to a world where you can't install Linux or where every single machine has incompatible firmware would be disastrous, IMHO. Curren…

>I hope that the possibility of an industry-wide switch to ARM doesn't take away the flexibility we now have with the PC

That's a 100% inevitability. Every new CPU architecture incorporates an entire set of new restrictions under the guise of security and privacy.

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