A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM • Hacker News Board

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#321

Post by romanoderoma » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 7:14 PM UTC

bfgoodrich wrote: post #319

romanoderoma wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple -- at 20% or so in most of the world's economies Apple has 17% (and dropping) of the mobile market share in Europe and around 9% in computing. There aren't many other richer economies in the World. Ferrari is worth now more than General Motors and Ford, so market share and net worth are not comparable. Their market share is small because they make a luxury limited edition product. They limit their production…

This is so intensely boring and stupid. Firstly, you profoundly misunderstood the inclusion of Ferrari, hilariously trying to twist that into an Apple critique. Secondly, Apple is selling as many or more iPhones than ever in Europe (19% in the EU). And Japan. And the US. And Canada. And Australia. And CHINA . And Singapore. And South Korea. Literally every rich area on Earth. Contrasted with pjmlp's "only the US" (ac…

> This is so intensely boring and stupid.

It's reality though.

> Secondly, Apple is selling as many or more iPhones than ever in Europe

Again: it's simply reality

The iPhone's market share in Europe fell 17% year-on-year in Q2, according to today's Canalys data. ... That 17% drop in sales saw Apple's share of the European smartphone market fall from 17% to 14.1% during the 12-month period.Aug 12, 2019

12 Aug 2020 - at its peak, Greater China accounted for 25% of Apple's revenue though that share slipped to 17% in the last fiscal year

Singapore, South Korea and Australia are rich, bust mostly irrelevant by number.

Europe has 700 million citizens, those 3 have less than 80 million citizens combined.

We were talking about computing though, in South Korea (the largest of the three) OS X is at 4%.

It's 8% in Japan, like in almost any other rich economy.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#322

Post by jonhohle » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 7:18 PM UTC

bserge wrote: post #105

rusticpenn wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not understand why ARM is considered lesser technology. RISC was always considered to be better then CISC in many academic circles.

Wasn't that simply because there was less software available for ARM? And the first ARM chips were quite anemic in performance. That's not the case anymore, but the stereotype will persist for a while.

One of the three major consoles is ARM based and one of the best selling systems of all time. From last gen, the PS Vita was ARM based and considered high end for mobile graphics at the time. Apple has already crushed Intel in on chip graphics and Nvidia is heavily invested in ARM.

I don’t think ARM and graphics will long be known for poor performance.

As a fan of AMD, I hope they see the writing on the wall and are planning accordingly. It would not be surprising to see the successors to the PS5 and Xbox Series running on ARM.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#323

Post by haberman » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 7:19 PM UTC

sharpneli wrote: post #311

haberman wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am trying to wrap my head around whether ARM's looser memory model is a fundamental performance advantage or not. I had always assumed that the looser memory model must have a performance benefit. But this comment from last week argues that it doesn't really buy that much, and that a bigger buffer can eliminate most of the difference: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25263461 If TSO forces flushing of store buf…

It has to flush them. Because if another core sees the result of the atomic op it must also see everything else that the other core wrote before the op. While it can indeed first see no writes and then suddenly all it can never see just the atomic op and not the previous writes. Without that the store buffers can be kept unflushed to, as an example, see if one can get a full cacheline or whatnot and only flush then.…

Interesting, are you suggesting that a large part of the M1 performance advantage is thanks to the weaker ARM memory model?

Is the 20% perf hit of TSO mode that you cite an ARM vs. ARM comparison? If so, that would be pretty damning.

Is there an easy way to flip the M1 into TSO mode for benchmarking? I would love to observe this 20% for myself.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#324

Post by csharptwdec19 » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 7:31 PM UTC

908B64B197 wrote: post #305

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you so certain it's only in the UK? It's definitely a thing here in Germany and Austria, and a relatively expensive one at that for just possessing a TV, and I'll bet my hat it's a thing in most EU countries.

TV Taxes and Licenses? What is that? Is there something in the EU that doesn't have a special tax or required paperwork?

In the case of the UK, the purpose of the Taxes is to pay for the programming that is broadcast over the airwaves, i.e. it funds the BBC.

This is somewhat of a 'compare and contrast' to the US Model, where either stations are funded by advertisements, or the public broadcasting stations that rely primarily on grants, as well as what they can get from the government; but in the case of the US, technically 'everyone' is paying into PBS whether they have a TV or not.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#325

Post by bfgoodrich » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 7:37 PM UTC

romanoderoma wrote: post #321

bfgoodrich wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so intensely boring and stupid. Firstly, you profoundly misunderstood the inclusion of Ferrari, hilariously trying to twist that into an Apple critique. Secondly, Apple is selling as many or more iPhones than ever in Europe (19% in the EU). And Japan. And the US. And Canada. And Australia. And CHINA . And Singapore. And South Korea. Literally every rich area on Earth. Contrasted with pjmlp's "only the US" (ac…

> This is so intensely boring and stupid. It's reality though. > Secondly, Apple is selling as many or more iPhones than ever in Europe Again: it's simply reality The iPhone's market share in Europe fell 17% year-on-year in Q2, according to today's Canalys data. ... That 17% drop in sales saw Apple's share of the European smartphone market fall from 17% to 14.1% during the 12-month period.Aug 12, 2019 12 Aug 2020 - a…

I guess Apple is done. Just doesn't matter at all. Wrap it up boys.

Groan. Alright buddy.

"those 3 have less than 80 million citizens combined"

Those three combined have a GDP almost double India's. And the rich of India overwhelmingly carry iPhones, as an aside. The rich everywhere carry iPhones. The middle-class everywhere carry iPhones. If you're trying to sell a product or service, worldwide, there's a reason the iPhone is the first-class market.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#326

Post by 908B64B197 » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 7:37 PM UTC

csharptwdec19 wrote: post #324

908B64B197 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TV Taxes and Licenses? What is that? Is there something in the EU that doesn't have a special tax or required paperwork?

In the case of the UK, the purpose of the Taxes is to pay for the programming that is broadcast over the airwaves, i.e. it funds the BBC. This is somewhat of a 'compare and contrast' to the US Model, where either stations are funded by advertisements, or the public broadcasting stations that rely primarily on grants, as well as what they can get from the government; but in the case of the US, technically 'everyone' i…

I have to be completely honest here...

Entertainment is a multi billion dollar industry. Companies like Disney are making record profits. Instead of relying on taxes and fees to make government-approved entertainment why not simply... make content people want to watch?

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#327

Post by iagovar » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 7:38 PM UTC

shawnz wrote: post #185

iagovar wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cheap is not that relative when you're poor. When your making an effort to buy an $400 laptop Apple is out of the equation. I know because I've been in that place.

When you are making an effort to buy a $400 laptop than any flagship product from any vendor is out of the question. $400 products are not what define the future landscape of the market. I am not trying to say that the entire impoverished world is going to go out and start buying Macbooks because of the M1. What I am saying is that practical ARM64 workstations are now a lot more plausible at every price point because…

One of the parents talked about the rest of the world. Hence my reply. You don't have to be in the 3rd world to consider an Apple product extremely expensive.

I agree that practical ARM64 Workstations will be more feasible now, but there's still a large gap.

There's a whole market of refurbished 1st world componentes. I talk a lot with people from LATAM and they're are used to buy 2nd hand Xeons with Chinese motherboards for their prosumer market.

They even sell packs of Xeons + motherboard + Memory (it was DDR3 recently, IDK how much that changed).

In many countries people hacked early 2000s games and there are communities maintaining such games because many people has not the means to play the last titles. Nor money to pay for subscriptions and such. They pirated the whole ecosystem.

This is pretty common in Russia and Turkey too. I guess in other countries it is too.

I do have websites in Spanish and try to make them lightweight and avoid JS because I know some of my visitors will have a hard time with it.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#328

Post by kevin_thibedeau » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 7:39 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #240

offtop5 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything I see computers being more open now. You can buy a Raspberry pi for 30$,and run whatever you want on it. For those in lower income nations this is an absolute game changer. Phones need to sorta be closed, who wants a null pointer exception to lock the dialer UI in an emergency ? Of course if you really want to, you can buy one of those open phones and program your own dialer from scratch, not a very good…

>You can buy a Raspberry pi for 30$,and run whatever you want on it. For those in lower income nations this is an absolute game changer. Except that decent RaspberyPI configs that could replace PCs cost around $60-70(In EU) and once you add a display, peripherals and a decent microSD card(which is still smaller, slower and less reliable than even a budget SSD) and you're looking at over $100 and for that kind of cash…

Linux desktops used to run with 4MiB of RAM on a 33MHz processor. You don't need the ultimate best to have a usable computer.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#329

Post by romanoderoma » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 7:40 PM UTC

bfgoodrich wrote: post #325

romanoderoma wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is so intensely boring and stupid. It's reality though. > Secondly, Apple is selling as many or more iPhones than ever in Europe Again: it's simply reality The iPhone's market share in Europe fell 17% year-on-year in Q2, according to today's Canalys data. ... That 17% drop in sales saw Apple's share of the European smartphone market fall from 17% to 14.1% during the 12-month period.Aug 12, 2019 12 Aug 2020 - a…

I guess Apple is done. Just doesn't matter at all. Wrap it up boys. Groan. Alright buddy. "those 3 have less than 80 million citizens combined" Those three combined have a GDP almost double India's. And the rich of India overwhelmingly carry iPhones, as an aside. The rich everywhere carry iPhones. The middle-class everywhere carry iPhones. If you're trying to sell a product or service, worldwide , there's a reason th…

> Groan. Alright buddy.

I'm probably too old to be your buddy.

Keep calm and read stats.

> Those three combined have a GDP almost double India's

Italy alone has the same GDP of India.

And it's only one of 27 countries in Europe.

And not even the richest.

Seriously, read the stats

The share of Apple in the mobile phone market, across India, in July 2020 was approximately 3.35 percent

96% of a billion people are not buying it and won't in the near future.

That was the point.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#330

Post by yjftsjthsd-h » Fri, Dec 11, 2020, 7:41 PM UTC

simias wrote: post #309

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The practical upshot is: On PC, I can take a single disk with a single GRUB version and boot it on an arbitrary machine. If ARM machines can do that with their own UEFI/ACPI/ServerReady setup, then great. But if I need to alter that disk for each machine I want to use it on (inject board.dtb, add a custom u-boot, whatever), then that's not okay. I would happily accept u-boot and whatever else being on an onboard flas…

We completely agree here. If ARM desktop becomes mainstream there will probably be some kind of abstraction layer needed at this level that doesn't really exist at this moment. I'm fairly optimistic that it will happen when it's really needed though.

Ah, okay, yeah. And honestly, the tech may already exist - I'm a little unclear on whether it's sufficient or not, but ARM UEFI is a thing - but I definitely look forward to seeing things standardize and have boards that actually work like that without extra hacks.