Live data from Hacker News

A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

blogs.windows.com

221–230 of 418 posts

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#221

I'm wondering what's happening at Microsoft's camp regarding M1. They are in a weird situation. They depend on AMD/Intel to deliver. This is a massive dependency for Microsoft. Are there other large corporations have this big of a dependency? I understand that Microsoft's revenue is shifting towards cloud, services, etc. But I think Windows is still "the" key to a lot of those offerings. Take a massive chunk of marke…

Microsoft does not exactly need Intel or AMD. For Windows, which is massively popular, they just need hardware that runs it well. Right now, the best hardware for Windows includes x86 CPUs from AMD/Intel and GPUs from Nvidia/AMD.

If Apple releases Silicon that begins to dominate in other areas by enough of a lead that it can't be ignored by purchasers, then Microsoft could start to sweat, assuming no one finds the hole in the market tempting enough.

So I would think the real question is how long will it take for competitors to step up their CPU efficiency.

Intel has ground to a halt, essentially, on the efficiency front. They continue to struggle with process improvements, and have had to do some tricky engineering to work within the constraints of an older process, while also having to settle for increasing power demands.

AMD has been fairly relentless in their forward march over the past 3-4 years, improving efficiency on their x86 chips. The next couple of years are going to be very telling how well that march of progress competes with Apple's march with their ARM-based CPUs.

There's still so much popularity in the Windows/x86 space that AMD likely doesn't feel overwhelmingly threatened, but one would imagine they do not have their collective heads in the sand, because they are still a market underdog. They cannot risk resting on their laurels while Intel catches up, and they are likely very well aware of Apple's thrust into the competitive CPU landscape. Whether they must switch to ARM to remain competitive is not yet clear, but will be in time.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I hope that the possibility of an industry-wide switch to ARM doesn't take away the flexibility we now have with the PC I think that ship has long sailed as we failed to treat smartphones as handheld computers and subject the smartphone/OS manufacturers to the same scrutiny as computer/OS manufacturers. This is a missed opportunity especially to those countries where smartphones are the first computer to majority of…

I see this sorta argument frequently but there was a time when only IBM was capable of making PCs. It seems whoever is first to market ends up not having an open platform, which later is superseded by a more open platform.* See the variety of open operating systems for devices. Ie sailfish, postmarketOS, librephone, etc.

If anything I see computers being more open now.

You can buy a Raspberry pi for 30$,and run whatever you want on it. For those in lower income nations this is an absolute game changer.

Phones need to sorta be closed, who wants a null pointer exception to lock the dialer UI in an emergency ?

Of course if you really want to, you can buy one of those open phones and program your own dialer from scratch, not a very good idea for the typical user though

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope that any switch to ARM retains a degree of the flexibility available with the PC but it's important to recognise that 1. x86 probably isn't going away anytime soon and 2. the PC world has come with its own set of constraints - notably being locked-in to (to all practical purposes) a duopoly of CPU manufacturers with the resultant impact on pricing and customer choice.

Yeah but the duopoly is at least committed to opensource for most of its components. I can download opensource drivers for the GPUs (provided by Intel and AMD) and network components (Intel) as well as most-if-not all of the components on my current motherboard.

Good for you and you can continue doing this.

In the meantime I'm looking forward to lower prices and more innovation on desktop / laptop / server CPUs as the current duopoly comes to an end.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#224
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go to a mall in Bangkok and you will lose count of the number of people walking around with iphones. I don't know what you consider a "tier 2 and tier 3" country, since I think you just made that up, but maybe you should travel more.

I do travel a lot, hence why I know how little iPhones are seen around the planet. I guess Bangkok holds 28% of Thailand population then. https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/thailand Also the issue being discussed here are Apple computers with M1, even less than those 28%, in case you also want numbers.

You clearly don't travel, or you're a liar, because your varied claims are uproariously disconnected reality.

Further, your snarky misunderstanding of their statement is more disingenuous nonsense. If 28% of Bangkok citizens had iPhones, you will lose count because it's a large city. That would make them very common by any metric.

A country where the GDP per capita is $7000 USD / capita and still the iPhone is at 28%, and still you continue with your "only the US cares" argument.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are there any powerful stakeholders who benefit from interoperability? All those companies selling motherboards for gamers etc?

So firms that sell speciality hardware direct to consumers? Are they big players?

I'd definitely consider companies like ASUS, MSI, etc. to be big players.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#226
post #65
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iPads are very limited, functionality wise. You barely have multiple windows. You can't really plug peripherals in. RAM is really limited. Etc. _______________________________________ Also, HA HA. I've checked and I was right. As far as I can see the cheapest one is $329, BUT with 32GB of storage, which is absolutely ridiculous in 2020. 128GB costs $449, and even that's barely enough storage. The keyboard is $159 (!)…

I haven't seen an $400 laptop you can upgrade the memory for. Perhaps they exist, but I've never seen one. The $250-300 chromebooks are much weaker than an iPad. I don't know if you've noticed, but Apple did release iPhone SE2 which is an almost-flagship at medium price. An iPad with a slightly different iOS and a cheaper than $129 keyboard (there are $50 bluetooh keyboards that work with the iPad, not by apple, that…

I've bought a number of them over the years. Refurbished last-generation Thinkpads are generally on the order of $400-$500.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rosetta 2 doesn't support the SIMD extensions AVX (2011) and newer, but compatibility still seems pretty good

This is because very little uses AVX instructions, hasn't it always been better to optimise software for the GPU rather than AVX instructions, even though they are not perfectly interchangeable.

You might be thinking of the most recent AVX-512 extensions which had significant power management complications delaying adoption. Many common programs have optimized SIMD paths because GPU computing is significantly more complicated and the setup overhead makes it slower for uses which don’t process tons of data - one of the interesting points about the M1 is that the unified memory design avoids the overhead of copying data between the CPU and GPU.

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#228
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go to a mall in Bangkok and you will lose count of the number of people walking around with iphones. I don't know what you consider a "tier 2 and tier 3" country, since I think you just made that up, but maybe you should travel more.

I do travel a lot, hence why I know how little iPhones are seen around the planet. I guess Bangkok holds 28% of Thailand population then. https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/thailand Also the issue being discussed here are Apple computers with M1, even less than those 28%, in case you also want numbers.

That's not how statistics work. You said significant market share "of apple products" and there it is.

Don't say

"the issue being discussed here are Apple computers with M1"

when your comment said

"Please list tier 2 and tier 3 countries where there is a significant market share of Apple hardware."

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#229

I'm wondering what's happening at Microsoft's camp regarding M1. They are in a weird situation. They depend on AMD/Intel to deliver. This is a massive dependency for Microsoft. Are there other large corporations have this big of a dependency? I understand that Microsoft's revenue is shifting towards cloud, services, etc. But I think Windows is still "the" key to a lot of those offerings. Take a massive chunk of marke…

I'm expecting them to follow suit with bespoke silicon. They are already doing this in a limited sense with the Surface X. I bet Apple has now really lit a fire under them

Re: A preview of x64 emulation on Windows for ARM

#230

I hope that the possibility of an industry-wide switch to ARM doesn't take away the flexibility we now have with the PC. Standardized parts and a well defined firmware interface (and thus "standard" bootloaders instead of a multitude like on ARM) is what makes the PC truly special. Moving to a world where you can't install Linux or where every single machine has incompatible firmware would be disastrous, IMHO. Curren…

>I hope that the possibility of an industry-wide switch to ARM doesn't take away the flexibility we now have with the PC I think that ship has long sailed as we failed to treat smartphones as handheld computers and subject the smartphone/OS manufacturers to the same scrutiny as computer/OS manufacturers. This is a missed opportunity especially to those countries where smartphones are the first computer to majority of…

We had that in the form of Windows CE based smartphones. As open as a PC, no walled garden, no app stores, just load your app and launch it. The market spoke decisively in rejecting it in favor of the iPhone and Android devices.
Post reply on HN