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Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

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Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#501

Post by pydry »

puranjay wrote: post #374
rtx wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats why we should be exclusively nuclear.

Hear hear. We need a massive pro-nuclear public campaign. When people think of "nuclear power", they just think of Chernobyl. In hindsight, Chernobyl might have done more harm to the planet than we thought - it single handedly turned public opinion against nuclear power, and all the clean energy it provides. One wonders if we would have any of our current climate issues if we had adopted nuclear power en masse in the…

I think 2-5x the cost, 10-1000x the capital intensity, and the industry's demand of a $200 million liability cap to make plants insurable.

Maybe if we had adopted nuclear en masse in the 80s we could have avoided current climate issues, but we didn't. I don't see why anybody thinks there's any point subsidizing this industry to hell and back now given the cost and the cheaper, less capital intensive options available that don't need subsidies.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#502

Post by Nowado »

Thlom wrote: post #495
cik wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came to share exactly this. The UAE is the most forward thinking, of any of the Gulf states. Economic planning literally spans 100 years and multiple scenarios. They're using oil wealth to actively invest in finance, tourism, technology, high-yield agri-tech, and medical research. They also have the most vibrant (by far) tech scene of the Arab world, and are working only to hyper-accelerate that.

If they are so rich and forward thinking, why do they use slave labor?

... why not?

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#503

Post by KMnO4 »

rossdavidh wrote: post #145

All true, but I think they're missing the real issue here. Renewables (esp. solar and wind) are, yes, dropping in cost exponentially, and this means they are currently zooming past fossil fuels in terms of affordability. There's an issue in regards to batteries, but that also seems to be on a learning curve that makes it better every year, so that won't buy fossil fuels much more time. Now, instead of rooting for tha…

Is there any reason why energy nations like Saudi Arabia could not compete in green energy?

Sure, they can supply fossil fuels from a bounty more plentiful than other countries. But Asia does not lack lithium or silicon.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#504

Post by LunaSea »

xbmcuser wrote: post #279
jhloa2 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average cost of residential electricity in the US is just under $0.12/kWh. A $6/mo electricity bill is pretty much unheard of around here. My electricity bill is around $50/mo and we only have 2 people living in the house. It would still take me ~25 years at my current rates and usages to break even, but the economics might work out better if you have a higher occupancy residence.

As more people move to electric vehicles putting in solar panels will become more feasible. The price of solar is falling so fast that if it is unfeasible today it might not be the same 2-4-6 years from now. 5-6 years ago a lot of people that are installing solar now calculated that it was not worth it for them then but it is now as the prices have fallen 50-60%.

It's impossible to charge electric vehicles on solar panels. You charge at night when the panels don't produce and the panels don't have enough capacity to charge the vehicle completely. So you need huge batteries that will be even more expensive.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#505

Post by wongarsu »

Thlom wrote: post #495
cik wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came to share exactly this. The UAE is the most forward thinking, of any of the Gulf states. Economic planning literally spans 100 years and multiple scenarios. They're using oil wealth to actively invest in finance, tourism, technology, high-yield agri-tech, and medical research. They also have the most vibrant (by far) tech scene of the Arab world, and are working only to hyper-accelerate that.

If they are so rich and forward thinking, why do they use slave labor?

Being rich and forward thinking is independent of morals

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#506

Post by fakedang »

Thlom wrote: post #495
cik wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came to share exactly this. The UAE is the most forward thinking, of any of the Gulf states. Economic planning literally spans 100 years and multiple scenarios. They're using oil wealth to actively invest in finance, tourism, technology, high-yield agri-tech, and medical research. They also have the most vibrant (by far) tech scene of the Arab world, and are working only to hyper-accelerate that.

If they are so rich and forward thinking, why do they use slave labor?

First of all, it's not slave labour that's employed in the construction industry or any of the other sectors. I think I can speak for this considering my relatives worked those "slave" jobs as you put it.

The UAE had long been forced by the British and the Americans to abolish slavery before they gained their independence. This, unlike Saudi Arabia, where it was legal long after the 1970s.

About the "slave" jobs, most of them are basically menial jobs with really shit pay and a combined bunk accommodation. But it's far better than what we get back in India or Pakistan or Bangladesh, which is usually the unemployment line. A number of people have improved their station and are part of the local business community from those levels.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#507

Post by fennecfoxen »

andrepd wrote: post #288
munk-a wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to preempt the other obvious reply (Okay - so that's good for the House of Saud but what about the rest of the country?). If they're wise and invest that money into education they could just convert their current rather highly skilled resource economy into an economy focused on service, finances or defense.

The house of Saud crucifies dissidents and murders journalists with a bonesaw. What makes you think they would do what you're saying?

Now, now. That's simply not true. The bonesaw was only for disassembly of the journalist after the murder.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#508

Post by caskstrength »

k_bx wrote: post #496
rossdavidh wrote: post #145

All true, but I think they're missing the real issue here. Renewables (esp. solar and wind) are, yes, dropping in cost exponentially, and this means they are currently zooming past fossil fuels in terms of affordability. There's an issue in regards to batteries, but that also seems to be on a learning curve that makes it better every year, so that won't buy fossil fuels much more time. Now, instead of rooting for tha…

> What do you suppose happens when, for example, Saudi Arabia can no longer feed itself? It just peacefully and gently starves to death? As a Ukrainian, I’m very optimistic about the future of democracy in Russia that would have a chance once it stops being a big gas station. We then might see a better, open Russia, without military aggression and disinformation campaigns.

Things might get worse before they get better though. Their leaders may ramp up militaristic tendencies to distract the population from internal problems and shift their attention to fighting "western imperialists" in Russian "sphere of influence", etc.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#509

Post by belorn »

mrfusion wrote: post #179

I hate the argument that we’re just waiting for batteries now. I think if we had variable pricing that matched the availability of renewables, consumers would shift quickly. Say something like power costs .02/kWh while the sun is shining and .30 when it’s not. I’d charge my car at work. I’d put a timer on my dryer to turn on at 10am. They probably come out with a hot water heater that goes really hot during the day a…

The current market operate by people bidding to supply demand in the future. The market say "I want to buy power a certain amount between specific hours at a specific date" and the power operation can say "I will obligate to supply that energy at that time and date at this price". Batteries could at any time jump in and bid below that of any current bidders.

In that aspect we already have variable pricing. Individual customers usually don't see this, but I suspect the primary reason has more to do with averaging out the cost over time and not exposing individuals to the internal details of the energy market.

Re: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast?

#510

Post by notsureaboutpg »

495636483 wrote: post #466
rossdavidh wrote: post #145

All true, but I think they're missing the real issue here. Renewables (esp. solar and wind) are, yes, dropping in cost exponentially, and this means they are currently zooming past fossil fuels in terms of affordability. There's an issue in regards to batteries, but that also seems to be on a learning curve that makes it better every year, so that won't buy fossil fuels much more time. Now, instead of rooting for tha…

Why do you think Saudi Arabia is slowly allowing women to participate? They need them in the workforce for an economically sustainable future. They know they are heading for crisis rapidly and investing hard to get out of there. However, they are ridiculously dependent on oil. Oil money is basically the whole country's sugar daddy (not for the slaves and foreign workers...). People don't really work there, they all j…

As someone who lived in Saudi and has relatives there, most of these comments are far far off the mark (Saudi has been diversifying for years, they won't be reliant on oil when it stops being as profitable, and that's also decades and decades away).

But this one takes the cake. Haha, they are allowing women to participate for money? Women already participated in Saudi economically from a long time back. They make up a large part of the Aramco workforce. Don't confuse allowing women to drive and repealing qawwam system with "allowing women to participate economically". Women didn't need to drive to participate they could just have their drivers drive them around (as is common anyways).

Also, Saudi is a conservative society, and the royals are more liberal than the populace (like everywhere in the world). Most people in Saudi dislike these reforms. The royals embark on them to please their allies in Europe and America and Israel as they hope to connect their economies more (they've already invested lots into these places with their sovereign wealth fund and want to protect their investments).

HN gets things surprisingly wrong when it comes to non Western places, but this is far off even for those standards!

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