Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges • Hacker News Board

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#621

Post by machinelabo » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:50 AM UTC

framecowbird wrote: post #613

foogazi wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Negotiation doesn’t mean that you get your way and they agree to your demands Sounds like both parties had a hard line on what they would accept

I think the takeaway is that the hard line for Google is being able to rootkit your phone

Then don't give your phone to Google. Don't use personal phone for work. Ask them for a phone if they want you to use it.

Why is this difficult? Why complain about something that is 100% in your control?

Employer that has thousands of employees don't have the time to amend contracts on per employee basis. Seems fair to me.

Google has HIPA-level access for personal data, even some medical data about people, security is tight. They don't want some righteous asshat arguing about contract agreements.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#622

Post by sxp » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:51 AM UTC

gwillen wrote: post #341

cj wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the context of starting a job at Google, I highly doubt you sign your employment contracts the day you show up for work. Typically employment contracts are signed and settled well before you enter the building as an employee. I would be surprised if the OP’s anecdote regarding the Googler pulled on the 1st day is in line with reality. Edit: apparently I’m wrong, the downvotes were deserved! I run hiring at my comp…

I was hired right out of school by Google in 2007. I was absolutely presented with various contract documents on day 1 to sign. In fact, I was not even given paper copies of them; I was supposed to click my agreement in an intranet signing tool. (I couldn't say what fraction of my employment paperwork was handled in this way, but things like IP assignment were definitely included.)

When I was hired by Google in 2010, I was sent physical papers to sign and return. I distinctly remember this because Google mailedthe papers to my old address from my first application rather than my 2010 address so I had to drive to my family member's house to get papers on a Friday and send them back by Monday.

I still have email copies of the contracts which they sent in parallel. This includes General Hiring Contract & Salary and a standard NDA with California Section 2870 modification.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#623

Post by missedthecue » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 5:59 AM UTC

thraway12 wrote: post #318

sneak wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't like the way Google does business, you are free to not do business with them, either as an employee or customer. I don't understand your snark.

Wasn't Google party to an implicit CARTEL agreement not to compete amongst hiring tech talent? https://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage...

I don't understand why this is wrong but labor unions are encouraged. If the sellers of labor can cartelize to maximize income, why shouldn't the buyers of labor be able to cartelize to minimize expenses? There is no logically consistent excuse.

Better yet, why isn't all cartelization prohibited?

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#624

Post by millirem » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:10 AM UTC

rablackburn wrote: post #555

fogetti wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to know, the same system happens in Japan too. When you get the offer letter it's an outline only. Then you either accept the offer letter as it is, or walk away. Asking for the detailed contract (called 就業規則 in Japanese) will always end up losing your job offer, because you have no legal right to see the contract before you join the company. Some companies are so hostile (and this is the norm in my exper…

I still remember the furore it caused when I asked for a copy of the 業務規則. (because the new overtime pay policy was paying ~$3/hr worked after 10pm and I wanted to see the section that covered that calculation) I just wanted to read the actual language around hours worked and overtime because it was never stated what the policy was. Turns out you couldn’t read it without a director sitting next to you, and it was in…

That's funny. The law in Japan stipulates that a copy of the 業務規則 needs to be in a place easily accessible to employees.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#625

Post by ngold » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:16 AM UTC

janesvilleseo wrote: post #46

ditonal wrote: post #40

One thing that happens in SV is: * Employer says "hey, we have all these convenient corporate app, wouldn't it be nice to be able to check work messages and work docs on your mobile? Just install our app to "corp-ify" your phone" * Employer now views your mobile device as containing sensitive company IP and therefore they have the right to snoop on anything on your phone. If you install corp on your phone, Google vie…

100% agree. People laugh at me why I carry two phones but this is the main reason. If my employer needs me to have a mobile phone they are paying for separate device and plan. It’s a little silly I need to carry 2 phones around but it makes my life so much more convenient. Unknown call on my work phone guess I’ll answer. If it’s on my personal then it’s spam. Leave company, no need to update or port my number. Want t…

Two phones, even two laptops and you're probably still carrying less weight then an original cellular phone with a strap.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#626

Post by sudosysgen » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:19 AM UTC

dleslie wrote: post #611

sudosysgen wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't kid yourself. Your employer will always be better connected and more influential politically than you, unless you organize. You'll be fired for donating to that PAC if it's actually becoming controversial and effective. Fortunately, unions have the same status in campaign contribution laws as PACs, so your best bet to do some lobbying as a worker is to join a union and use it as a PAC.

I watched my parents suffer throughout their careers because their Unions were politically toxic and also deigned it necessary to keep their wages below market in order to apply pressure on the employer to raise the wages of others in the bargaining unit. As though a lineman and a telecontrol technologist are similarly skilled and trained. My father spent the better part of a decade trying to hire his replacement bec…

If you actually want to be effective, the solution is to fix the union, not to engage in completely inoffensive tactics.

I don't doubt that a great many unions are horrible. For a great many reasons, unions are often, but not always, structured horribly with badly mismatched incentives, almost no democracy, and poor accountability. There are reasons for this, that can and have been addressed.

You're simply never going to be able to outcompete your employer in legalized bribery. It won't happen.

Also, if the PACs you're talking about ever get actually influential, there will be just as much politics involved. And you still haven't adresses the most important point, which is that your employer can retaliate against you for doing so without any problem.

In any case, unions can be and often are better, and can be and indeed often are hundreds of time more effective than what you're describing ever can be.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#627

Post by astura » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:20 AM UTC

nmfisher wrote: post #610

cj wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the context of starting a job at Google, I highly doubt you sign your employment contracts the day you show up for work. Typically employment contracts are signed and settled well before you enter the building as an employee. I would be surprised if the OP’s anecdote regarding the Googler pulled on the 1st day is in line with reality. Edit: apparently I’m wrong, the downvotes were deserved! I run hiring at my comp…

This does happen regularly, and employees should never do it (for precisely this reason). Don't quit your job, move cities, etc etc without a signed contract.

What good is that if you're an "at-will" employee? They can just change the rules at any time for any reason and fire you if you don't agree to them.

I have enough experience to know absolutely nothing about me employer is guaranteed/permanent in the US.

Relevant story for the HN crowd: I worked for a small company (~250 employees). Real chill place. Six months after I start they were suddenly bought out by a huge multinational corporation. First order of business is everyone needs to sign a non-disclosure agreement and an agreement that the company owns all the code you write while employed with them, even if you do it on your own time. There were some people who were reluctant to sign, it was made extremely clear that if they didn't sign they would be unemployed.

That one didn't bother me, I only code at work anyway. What did bother me was at another employer right after I became eligible for the employer's (generous) match on my 401(k) (after 1 year employment) an email went out a few weeks later saying "Sorry, we won't be matching 401k contributions anymore."

I know a guy (very senior engineer) who negotiated that he would be working from home 3-4 days a week before taking a new job. Employer agreed. Few months later line manager notices that employee is not logged into whatever work chat they use in the middle of the day. Not habitually, once. Next day it was announced that there will be no more working from home.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#628

Post by astrange » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:29 AM UTC

throwaway667555 wrote: post #481

free2OSS wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a privacy nut, but I am concerned about a company owning my ideas when I'm working on personal projects. I'm careful about that. Would that be a deal breaker even at a dream job, yes.

I admire that and wish more employees looked after their interests, too, so that the commons weren't so poisoned with corporation-morality rather than humanity-morality. Practically speaking, I think giving The Guardian or some pro-union think tank/lobbyist a copy of internal corporate policies would move the needle a lot more than a personal stand, but the personal stand is admirable nonetheless. Currently my financ…

Tech Solidarity collected those years ago. I think he came to the conclusion that you can't get anyone in tech to organize for anything so it didn't really matter.

Although it does seem like Googlers organize for their own comfort; they don't seem to bother doing it for their users though.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#629

Post by bg24 » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:30 AM UTC

Curious what comes first: actual spying to find out whom to fire vs. finding all information on an employee who is on the firing list? I think it is the later. And collecting information (through IT) gets them to all the browsing information on the phone.

Another aspect is getting caught in an IT system triggered alert. Typically being non-compliant with company sensitive information.

This is not only at Google, but most big companies. Hence I am curious.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#630

Post by dleslie » Thu, Dec 03, 2020, 6:33 AM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #626

dleslie wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched my parents suffer throughout their careers because their Unions were politically toxic and also deigned it necessary to keep their wages below market in order to apply pressure on the employer to raise the wages of others in the bargaining unit. As though a lineman and a telecontrol technologist are similarly skilled and trained. My father spent the better part of a decade trying to hire his replacement bec…

If you actually want to be effective, the solution is to fix the union, not to engage in completely inoffensive tactics. I don't doubt that a great many unions are horrible. For a great many reasons, unions are often, but not always, structured horribly with badly mismatched incentives, almost no democracy, and poor accountability. There are reasons for this, that can and have been addressed. You're simply never goin…

How could they not be toxic? The ability to advocate for yourself has been given to someone else, over something as intimately personal and important as the labour you undertake for the majority of your waking hours. They are your only advocate, in the absence of strong regulation and legislation, because in a union arrangement it is inappropriate for the employer to advocate for the employee against the union.

I don't need to outcompete on donations; I need to collectively pool my cash with other like-minded individuals in order to pay for political activity that will coerce and convince legislators. Those with the most money don't necessarily win, but money is the key to gaining access. I've had my representative read to Parliament an exerpt of a letter that I wrote; there was nary a need for money to get that response, only access.

My employers have never been interested in what I do with my money, and I suspect they would be _far_ more interested if I were to begin organizing a union.

The solution to employee abuse is legislation and regulation, not yet another layer of political bureaucracy.