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Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

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Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#461

Post by marricks »

MereInterest wrote: post #381
marricks wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a great time to consider the differences between positive and negative liberty. Negative liberty: no one can get in my way of doing whatever I want! Google has the right to rootkit my life and I have the right to ignore it and work at a bodega because all tech giants eventually agreed this is a good practice for them Positive liberty: corporations can't infringe on my right to a private life and must prot…

I've heard it phrased the other way around. Positive liberty is about things that are guaranteed (e.g. health care, food, human dignity). Negative liberty is about things that may not be done (e.g. no punishment for speech, no limitations on buying guns, no environmental regulations). We are in agreement about which type is better, so this is solely a quibble about the names.

I just flipped them, reading the wiki on the terms I see I had them backwards.

My partner always corrects me and I think they have them wrong :P at least we agree on which one is better too

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#462

Post by alecco »

black_puppydog wrote: post #262

The whole thread here seems to revolve around whether or not Spiers should have been fired for what she did. And while I have a clear opinion on that and had fun sparring with y'all here about it, can we also talk about how unionization is actually something that we need to think about as a profession / group of professions? The days where "being in IT" made you a rockstar that could command a premium in individual n…

In theory, I would love an IT union. But in practice it's likely to turn into another extortion racket by a small cabal of sleazy fat men. And they will stay in power appealing to the lowest of the low flattening salaries and destroying meritocracy. With sadness I have to say, no thanks.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#463

Post by foogazi »

MereInterest wrote: post #203
jedberg wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not. Legal doesn't want to deal with everyone having a different employment contract. Google has always leaned towards being ok with a ton of false negatives to avoid false positives. They'd rather give up 10 good hires than make one bad one. This is just an extension of that. They don't want any exceptions and they aren't willing to make any.

Isn't it great when even something as huge and life-changing as a job is subject to a contract of adhesion with no negotiation allowed? I'm sure glad to live in such a free country with great worker rights. (Sarcasm intended.)

Negotiation doesn’t mean that you get your way and they agree to your demands

Sounds like both parties had a hard line on what they would accept

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#464

Post by discordance »

nwsm wrote: post #428
ditonal wrote: post #40

One thing that happens in SV is: * Employer says "hey, we have all these convenient corporate app, wouldn't it be nice to be able to check work messages and work docs on your mobile? Just install our app to "corp-ify" your phone" * Employer now views your mobile device as containing sensitive company IP and therefore they have the right to snoop on anything on your phone. If you install corp on your phone, Google vie…

I have Teams installed on my iPhone. How does that give my company access to anything of mine?

Most corp IT teams require employees to install a mobile device management profile, which enables you to then run teams, get email access etc. it’s also what gives your company privileges on your phone.

Some MDM profiles can have pretty nasty access enabled (e.g. route all IP traffic via Corp net, access device location at all times, remote wipe etc).

Take a look at what your MDM profile says if you have one installed.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#465

Post by black_puppydog »

leftyted wrote: post #453
r0p3 wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having "lefty" in your name with such a poor understanding of labor exploitation is funny.

Working at Google while complaining about "labor exploitation" is like being a rich white kid in a Che shirt

Not comparing google to coal mines. BUT

1. Unionized coal mines had/have much better wages and working conditions :)

2. Of course there are shades everywhere. And just because there are worse exploiters, doesn't mean google should get away with anything that's not "as bad" as those.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#466

Post by renewiltord »

black_puppydog wrote: post #262

The whole thread here seems to revolve around whether or not Spiers should have been fired for what she did. And while I have a clear opinion on that and had fun sparring with y'all here about it, can we also talk about how unionization is actually something that we need to think about as a profession / group of professions? The days where "being in IT" made you a rockstar that could command a premium in individual n…

People should be allowed to unionize but I'll oppose it at every front. Because mass power means mass power that can be turned against me. 2016 taught me something. There are a large contingent of anti-immigrants out there. Should you allow the creation of a mob, a day will come when the populists will take control of it.

In moments, the mob can break generations of integration. The best defence against it is prevention of its formation.

No, should you gain any appreciable fraction of power to unionize, I think there's a lot of my money I would throw into the opposite effort. No populist mobs. Never again. No group should have that power.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#467

Post by oh_sigh »

black_puppydog wrote: post #262

The whole thread here seems to revolve around whether or not Spiers should have been fired for what she did. And while I have a clear opinion on that and had fun sparring with y'all here about it, can we also talk about how unionization is actually something that we need to think about as a profession / group of professions? The days where "being in IT" made you a rockstar that could command a premium in individual n…

Can you tell me concrete ways in which the average googler SWE's life will improve if they join a union?

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#468

Post by renewiltord »

lucian1900 wrote: post #445
wwtrv wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This just reiterates what the parent comment said. In this case up to 49% of all workers who did not want to use tabs will be forced to.

The alternative is having no democratic power over the workplace at all. Being in the 49% that disagreed with something is still better than your boss mandating the choice instead. In practice, it’s also quite rare for workers to strongly disagree among themselves. Disagreements tend to happen between groups with different material incentives, so largely between workers and owners/management.

> Being in the 49% that disagreed with something is still better than your boss mandating the choice instead.

No, it really isn't because of ecosystem effects. Per-company unions find themselves rapidly affiliated with industry unions and then pan-industry unions. The net effect of this is that in non-union industries you can go somewhere else and negotiate with a new boss. In union industries you go somewhere else and you're still subject to the same 51%.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#469

Post by brundolf »

black_puppydog wrote: post #262

The whole thread here seems to revolve around whether or not Spiers should have been fired for what she did. And while I have a clear opinion on that and had fun sparring with y'all here about it, can we also talk about how unionization is actually something that we need to think about as a profession / group of professions? The days where "being in IT" made you a rockstar that could command a premium in individual n…

Regardless of whether or not IT professionals should be worried about their salaries, labor power isn't just about compensation.

Unions could negotiate for better parental leave (which is still atrocious throughout the US, even in relatively cushy jobs).

Unions could empower tech workers to actually push back on unethical policies and projects, as opposed to right now where they get to make a statement and then nothing changes.

Organization is about changing a power balance; it's not just about money.

Re: Google illegally spied on workers before firing them, US labor board alleges

#470

Post by renewiltord »

black_puppydog wrote: post #459
renewiltord wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't about the topic. Like if you tell me it's going to give me computer security tips and instead it's advocating for peace in the middle east I genuinely don't give a fuck. It's bonzibuddy crap. It's getting blacklisted. I'd prefer you don't get fired for doing dumb shit like that because whatever, it's not going to kill someone, but I'm not going to use that team's adware shit anymore.

Oh wow, I just looked up Bonzibuddy and I guess I learned something today! :D Sorry, I misunderstood this to allude to "Bonze" a German/French derogatory translating to "fat cat". https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Bonze

Haha, well, I guess I learned a new German derogatory term so it's a win-win all around :D
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