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China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

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Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#121

Post by Supermancho »

trianglem wrote: post #65
lota-putty wrote: post #40

CGTN is to China what RT is for Russia. Economics is a zero-sum-game; if they lifted everyone in China out of poverty, then poverty is exported to other countries or the nature paid all the costs. Edit: Nature is a silent sufferer in the economics. It acted as cushion to our misadventures, a-bomb(wars), oil-spills, co2 & other gases, industrial wastes, nuclear wastes. For a person to become rich, they have to earn pr…

What? There is technically more than enough to go around. Why does someone always have to be in poverty in your world view?

> Why does someone always have to be in poverty in your world view?

The short answer is, "because there has always been". The longer answer is about distribution, effort, and capability for populations. There's also the issue of individuals who choose not to participate or concern themselves with their own well-being.

It's almost assured that there is uneven distribution of goods in every economic model leading to a complete breakdown of availability for some.

In an egalitarian utopian socialist/communist system, there are inadvertent gatekeepers who create an uneven distribution from corruption and opportunity cost. ie Distribution work that is hard is avoided when there's plentiful and ongoing distribution work^.

Any economic system that is not explicitly egalitarian has gatekeepers by design and you end up with uneven distribution. I don't see any way around these issues, even with automation...which has to be maintained by humans and you end up with the same issues.

^I think the USPO is an exceptional marvel as an egalitarian service which actually works, albeit by making cost/benefit choices about what areas to cover. To whit, this is a compromise that still leaves some without mail service, akin to mail-poverty.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#122

Post by CMCDragonkai »

dirtyid wrote: post #114
baybal2 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMO Mao was more than 30% bad, but he maintained territorial integrity and the conditions for PRC to thrive And ceded 1m+ square kilometres to USSR. > The generation he fucked over have nothing to be thankful for, but the generations that came after does, 30% bad is going to shrink with each year as Chinese comprehensive power grows Unless the country is not steered back into the abyss, which is seemingly is the ca…

Yes, the CCP ceded land in majority of border settlements, but core interests were preserved. Relatively minor cost for actually mitigating external frictions seeing as how the only remaining land border India/Bhutan is causing so much shit show now not to mention SCS disputes. Or China would be in a better position had they not acceded to Mongolian independence. >hates the party with deep, deep passion I mean... wha…

This comment is correct. Many Chinese international students do not want to lose their Chinese passport because they believe in the economic opportunity in China.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#123

Post by powerapple »

hkmaxpro wrote: post #117
hmmmlife wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So far, I live most of the life in China, IMHO, the root of our previous poverty is arrogance and one man in power (see Mao's policy which had led nation wide famine just because he want to surpass US in a short time How do you explain Poverty of India then? It doesn't suffer from one person in power. India and China were roughly equal in population and GDP if you go back in time before the start of the British empi…

> India and China were roughly equal in population and GDP if you go back in time before the start of the British empire Any source for your claims? The truth: India population in 1800: 169 million [0] China population in 1800: 322 million (nearly double India’s) As for GDP: China’s GDP (PPP) per capita in 1800: $316K [1] India’s GDP (PPP) per capita in 1800: $177K Note this is per capita. Factoring in the population…

You don't need to look at 1800 data, because it is irrelevant. If you want to show what CCP did, you have to show the data in range. [2] is the chart comparing India to China from 1950 - 2010, which is the period when CCP is in power. I wish economy, society and history is so easy and everyone can nail down to a single sentence on the root of any economy phenomena. I love how he describe being poor was because of arrogance, lol.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_GDP_of_China

[2] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/GD...

Edit: formatting

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#124

Post by powerapple »

I don't want to discuss anything except something I know as a government sympathizer. The whole thing is more symbolic, but it is their right to celebrate. How poverty lifting work in China is that each city will have a county assigned to them, and these cities will use its resources to help. From city level, the work is then distributed to state-owned entities, each will be responsible for a village for example. Assigned communist party officials from these state company/organizations will stay in the village, oversee the project. It is a multi-year project. Some are successful, some are not. It is a hard problem. I think internet will bring more people out of poverty. The long term successes are those places with new factories/workshops, they can sell produces online or make something. There are no opportunities in some villages regardless, young people have to work somewhere else, farming is not an option for young people.

As for concentration camp: [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouobrLVpKIQ

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#125

Post by alexitorg »

hkmaxpro wrote: post #117
hmmmlife wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So far, I live most of the life in China, IMHO, the root of our previous poverty is arrogance and one man in power (see Mao's policy which had led nation wide famine just because he want to surpass US in a short time How do you explain Poverty of India then? It doesn't suffer from one person in power. India and China were roughly equal in population and GDP if you go back in time before the start of the British empi…

> India and China were roughly equal in population and GDP if you go back in time before the start of the British empire Any source for your claims? The truth: India population in 1800: 169 million [0] China population in 1800: 322 million (nearly double India’s) As for GDP: China’s GDP (PPP) per capita in 1800: $316K [1] India’s GDP (PPP) per capita in 1800: $177K Note this is per capita. Factoring in the population…

It seams India was ahead for most of the past two millennia. Population CHINA INDIA 1AD 59.6M 75.0M 1000AD 59.0M 75.0M 1600AD 160.0M 135.0M 1700AD 138.0M 165.0M 1820AD 318.0M 209.0M

Estimated Real GDP per capita in 2011 USD (cgdppc in source) Selection of roughly comparable dates (note no chinese GDP per capita estimates from before 1661). CHINA INDIA 1600s $940(1661) $1228(1228) 1700s $686(1766) $1103(1750) 1820s $741(1820) $ 968(1821) 1900 $840 $1131 1950 $757 $1417 1980 $1690 $1143 2000 $4071 $2003

I wouldn't take this as gospel. These are estimates put together from patchy historical sources and probably widely innacurate. But it seems to indicate that India was ahead in population for much of the last two thousand years. And ahead of China in GDP per capita for most of the past 400 years.

Source Maddison project, University of Gronigen [0] https://www.rug.nl/ggdc/historicaldevelopment/maddison/relea...

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#126

Post by joemazerino »

jbrun wrote: post #31

Not sure how many of the people on this thread have actually been or lived in China. I have lived there about 2 years and travelled fairly extensively. I cannot speak to these specific villages, but the amount of people lifted out of poverty in China in the last 50 years is probably one of the greatest achievements in human history along with modern science, medicine and rule of law.

A great achievement overshadowed by it's execution. Achievements in a authoritarianism system are not that interesting.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#128

Post by brnt »

dumb1224 wrote: post #109
brnt wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no separation of powers in China and therefore there is no rule of law. In theory the Party's congress could enforce a defacto independent judiciary, but the evidence is of course that they don't, they are the biggest theatrical production not called that. If that wasn't enough you could trivially look up how many lawyers end up imprisoned or worse. It's not even a bit silly to argue China has anything near…

I'm talking about lower courts such as county/city courts that deal with all local level proceedings. They function just as English magistrates/county courts. I'm not sure how the separation of power has anything to do with these local judiciary. If you talk about corruption that's a different issue. For me if these courts are exercising their judicial power legally and properly then we at least have a working civil…

https://www.worldjusticeproject.org/rule-of-law-index/countr...

Sounds like you don't read to many news papers by the way. You might want to check out what's going in in Hong Kong under Chinese pressure. Good demonstration of what the Chinese state thinks of independent judiciaries.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#129

Post by xster »

baybal2 wrote: post #96
jbrun wrote: post #31

Not sure how many of the people on this thread have actually been or lived in China. I have lived there about 2 years and travelled fairly extensively. I cannot speak to these specific villages, but the amount of people lifted out of poverty in China in the last 50 years is probably one of the greatest achievements in human history along with modern science, medicine and rule of law.

> I cannot speak to these specific villages, but the amount of people lifted out of poverty in China in the last 50 years is probably one of the greatest achievements in human history And you forget to say that the amount of people verged into absolute poverty by CPC is also the biggest shame of human history. Nowhere else in history few hundred million people verge forcibly degraded back into stone age out of somewh…

It's a powerful sentiment. But it needs to withstand the objective test of demonstrating, numerically, its narrative against historical data.

When the CPC took power, the GDP per capita was 54 USD in 1952 (earliest date in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_GDP_of_China).

If you chose your words carefully and still state "forcibly degraded back into stone age out of somewhat moderately industrialised economy", one would expect the GDP per capita to revert to 1 USD. In reality, GDP per capita grew to 89 USD in 1960, at its worst reverted to 71 USD during the height of the famine and recovered 3 years later to 98 USD.

Re: China delists all remaining poverty-stricken counties

#130

Post by xster »

auganov wrote: post #101
tgb wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I share your skepticism, there doesn't seem to be much room for cover-up here (though I'm sure the initial outbreak was significantly under-counted). My understanding is that restrictions are pretty minimal apart from strict control of travelers. So either there is basically no community spread or it's likely to be rampant - and then the hospitals would be overflowing like they are in the US, which is much much…

In general I agree, it's pretty unlikely that China is anywhere in the top 10 per capita, but there's still a lot of room for a cover up. It could very well be that China chose to sweep it under the rug and has many more people dying than reported. But the number could still be perfectly average, which is not that much. And perhaps below since most of SE Asia seems to be doing very well regardless of policy. China co…

Are you referencing something specific?
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